Protective dog - Page 6

Kellee · 11-18-2009, 11:50 AM

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Originally Posted by Warrior Princess

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kellee

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Originally Posted by Lisa

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Problem is he does not seem protective at all

My question is this....has there ever been a reason he needed to be? Unless a threat is present, a stable dog should not act aggressively. Often (and especially with the case of bulldogs who are generally very people friendly) a dog that acts aggressive (or as some people describe as "protective") is often nerve based aggression anyways. Lack of confidence so if push comes to shove, those dogs are not going to protect anyone but themselves , and more than likely by running away..

As far as wanting your dog to be more suspicious of people...why??? Dogs that are "suspicious" of people who pose no threat are dogs that lack confidence. Why would you want that? Especially in a dog that is barely a year old? If I saw a bulldog under a year old putting on vicious looking threat display, my first thought would be "nerve bag" and not some rough and tough protection dog. Your dog sounds like he is confident in himself and has good nerves. That is what you want! You think a leary bulldog dog is actually going to put himself on the line if an ACTUAL physical threat was present?

I don't agree with you. If a dog barks and freaks out and carries on at every person it sees, maybe it is a nerve bag. If a dog has a suspicious nature, I don't believe this to be so. (meaning suspiciousness=nerve bag)

I agree with Lisa. If there is no threat then there should be no reason for your dog to act a fool. Think of a bully at school. The one's that are insecure and have something to prove make the most noise. The one's with black belts that have been formally trained are cool and not looking for a confrontation.

Kellee, I would do a little more research. You have a tendency to make a lot of statements about sport and personal protection that you've admitted you know very little about. Making statements just based on your experience isn't the best means in which to form a firm opinion on. Learning more about other forms of training and dog sport may help you get an idea where Lisa and those that participate in the sport are coming from.

When Xena emerged out of her puppyhood, she acquired a bark that sounds more vicious than my two male full-grown Rotts. lol! Nobody comes to my door or even in the vicinity without me knowing. That's the extent of the protection I get from her. I don't want her accosting folks that come to my door just for the hell of it.

If you really want protection and aren't willing to go the lengths of getting formal protection training (or your dog lacks the "stuff" necessary for the job), invest in a gun. Most cops will tell you that 'yeah dogs can be great deterrents, but if someone is really trying to harm you and yours, they'll shoot your dog then move on to other things.'

I just said if a dog barks at every person it sees and is freaking out at everything, ( see above post) then it probably IS a nervebag. So I agreed with Lisa too. I am amazed that posters take what they WANT from a post to prove their point and ignore the rest. I said suspiciousness doesn't equal nervebag necessarily.

I also believe the sport is just that. A game. Now it is unfortunate that I have one of those dogs that, um....may accost someone at the door. SO I take MANY precautions ( which are a pain) to see that never happens to the mailman, innocent salesperson , etc. IF an intruder wandered in my house in the middle of the night.....yes he would bite them I am certain. He would bark first, etc, but if push came to shove yes he would accost that person.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not LOVING the fact this dog is this way. I live in a neighborhood that generally speaking doesn't lend itself to needing a dog like this, and I'm sure my life would be easier without it. However I do believe just because your dog participates in weight pull, or bite work.....doesn't mean you have cornered all the knowledge in dog behavior either. And I can guarantee most of you that do bite work etc....that you do not necessarily have a dog that really truly has what it takes to be a PPD. I'd guess probably not.

Warrior Princess · 11-18-2009, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kellee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior Princess

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kellee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa

Quote:

Problem is he does not seem protective at all

My question is this....has there ever been a reason he needed to be? Unless a threat is present, a stable dog should not act aggressively. Often (and especially with the case of bulldogs who are generally very people friendly) a dog that acts aggressive (or as some people describe as "protective") is often nerve based aggression anyways. Lack of confidence so if push comes to shove, those dogs are not going to protect anyone but themselves , and more than likely by running away..

As far as wanting your dog to be more suspicious of people...why??? Dogs that are "suspicious" of people who pose no threat are dogs that lack confidence. Why would you want that? Especially in a dog that is barely a year old? If I saw a bulldog under a year old putting on vicious looking threat display, my first thought would be "nerve bag" and not some rough and tough protection dog. Your dog sounds like he is confident in himself and has good nerves. That is what you want! You think a leary bulldog dog is actually going to put himself on the line if an ACTUAL physical threat was present?

I don't agree with you. If a dog barks and freaks out and carries on at every person it sees, maybe it is a nerve bag. If a dog has a suspicious nature, I don't believe this to be so. (meaning suspiciousness=nerve bag)

I agree with Lisa. If there is no threat then there should be no reason for your dog to act a fool. Think of a bully at school. The one's that are insecure and have something to prove make the most noise. The one's with black belts that have been formally trained are cool and not looking for a confrontation.

Kellee, I would do a little more research. You have a tendency to make a lot of statements about sport and personal protection that you've admitted you know very little about. Making statements just based on your experience isn't the best means in which to form a firm opinion on. Learning more about other forms of training and dog sport may help you get an idea where Lisa and those that participate in the sport are coming from.

When Xena emerged out of her puppyhood, she acquired a bark that sounds more vicious than my two male full-grown Rotts. lol! Nobody comes to my door or even in the vicinity without me knowing. That's the extent of the protection I get from her. I don't want her accosting folks that come to my door just for the hell of it.

If you really want protection and aren't willing to go the lengths of getting formal protection training (or your dog lacks the "stuff" necessary for the job), invest in a gun. Most cops will tell you that 'yeah dogs can be great deterrents, but if someone is really trying to harm you and yours, they'll shoot your dog then move on to other things.'

I just said if a dog barks at every person it sees and is freaking out at everything, ( see above post) then it probably IS a nervebag. So I agreed with Lisa too. I am amazed that posters take what they WANT from a post to prove their point and ignore the rest. I said suspiciousness doesn't equal nervebag necessarily.

I also believe the sport is just that. A game. Now it is unfortunate that I have one of those dogs that, um....may accost someone at the door. SO I take MANY precautions ( which are a pain) to see that never happens to the mailman, innocent salesperson , etc. IF an intruder wandered in my house in the middle of the night.....yes he would bite them I am certain. He would bark first, etc, but if push came to shove yes he would accost that person.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not LOVING the fact this dog is this way. I live in a neighborhood that generally speaking doesn't lend itself to needing a dog like this, and I'm sure my life would be easier without it. However I do believe just because your dog participates in weight pull, or bite work.....doesn't mean you have cornered all the knowledge in dog behavior either. And I can guarantee most of you that do bite work etc....that you do not necessarily have a dog that really truly has what it takes to be a PPD. I'd guess probably not.

Dude, you just said you disagreed with what Lisa said - now you're somehow agreeing? I'm confused.

My dog isn't involved in protection training or weight pull or anything, but I know enough not to make blanket statements about things I don't know anything about. You called the sport of protection training a game. If you know nothing about it, then why are you giving opinions on it?

Kellee · 11-18-2009, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior Princess

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kellee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior Princess

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kellee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa

Quote:

Problem is he does not seem protective at all

My question is this....has there ever been a reason he needed to be? Unless a threat is present, a stable dog should not act aggressively. Often (and especially with the case of bulldogs who are generally very people friendly) a dog that acts aggressive (or as some people describe as "protective") is often nerve based aggression anyways. Lack of confidence so if push comes to shove, those dogs are not going to protect anyone but themselves , and more than likely by running away..

As far as wanting your dog to be more suspicious of people...why??? Dogs that are "suspicious" of people who pose no threat are dogs that lack confidence. Why would you want that? Especially in a dog that is barely a year old? If I saw a bulldog under a year old putting on vicious looking threat display, my first thought would be "nerve bag" and not some rough and tough protection dog. Your dog sounds like he is confident in himself and has good nerves. That is what you want! You think a leary bulldog dog is actually going to put himself on the line if an ACTUAL physical threat was present?

I don't agree with you. If a dog barks and freaks out and carries on at every person it sees, maybe it is a nerve bag. If a dog has a suspicious nature, I don't believe this to be so. (meaning suspiciousness=nerve bag)

I agree with Lisa. If there is no threat then there should be no reason for your dog to act a fool. Think of a bully at school. The one's that are insecure and have something to prove make the most noise. The one's with black belts that have been formally trained are cool and not looking for a confrontation.

Kellee, I would do a little more research. You have a tendency to make a lot of statements about sport and personal protection that you've admitted you know very little about. Making statements just based on your experience isn't the best means in which to form a firm opinion on. Learning more about other forms of training and dog sport may help you get an idea where Lisa and those that participate in the sport are coming from.

When Xena emerged out of her puppyhood, she acquired a bark that sounds more vicious than my two male full-grown Rotts. lol! Nobody comes to my door or even in the vicinity without me knowing. That's the extent of the protection I get from her. I don't want her accosting folks that come to my door just for the hell of it.

If you really want protection and aren't willing to go the lengths of getting formal protection training (or your dog lacks the "stuff" necessary for the job), invest in a gun. Most cops will tell you that 'yeah dogs can be great deterrents, but if someone is really trying to harm you and yours, they'll shoot your dog then move on to other things.'

I just said if a dog barks at every person it sees and is freaking out at everything, ( see above post) then it probably IS a nervebag. So I agreed with Lisa too. I am amazed that posters take what they WANT from a post to prove their point and ignore the rest. I said suspiciousness doesn't equal nervebag necessarily.

I also believe the sport is just that. A game. Now it is unfortunate that I have one of those dogs that, um....may accost someone at the door. SO I take MANY precautions ( which are a pain) to see that never happens to the mailman, innocent salesperson , etc. IF an intruder wandered in my house in the middle of the night.....yes he would bite them I am certain. He would bark first, etc, but if push came to shove yes he would accost that person.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not LOVING the fact this dog is this way. I live in a neighborhood that generally speaking doesn't lend itself to needing a dog like this, and I'm sure my life would be easier without it. However I do believe just because your dog participates in weight pull, or bite work.....doesn't mean you have cornered all the knowledge in dog behavior either. And I can guarantee most of you that do bite work etc....that you do not necessarily have a dog that really truly has what it takes to be a PPD. I'd guess probably not.

Dude, you just said you disagreed with what Lisa said - now you're somehow agreeing? I'm confused.

My dog isn't involved in protection training or weight pull or anything, but I know enough not to make blanket statements about things I don't know anything about. You called the sport of protection training a game. If you know nothing about it, then why are you giving opinions on it?

Re-read.Carefully. Schutzhund, weight pull, yep I think the dog sees these things as a game, and not necessarily will it all transfer to real life. Biting a guy in a suit doesn't equal protection dog.

Warrior Princess · 11-18-2009, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kellee

Re-read.Carefully. Schutzhund, weight pull, yep I think the dog sees these things as a game, and not necessarily will it all transfer to real life. Biting a guy in a suit doesn't equal protection dog.

Ok, after re-reading, I still don't see where you can give an opinion on sport work if you haven't done any. How do you know the difference between biting a guy in a suit or a drunk on the street? What do you know about the sport? I don't know that much so educate me please.

2bully · 11-18-2009, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kellee

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2bully

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kellee

I am raising my eyebrow with the thought of "training" a dog to be suspicious. However, I could be wrong.

I would think the dog has those tendencies or doesn't, although I will bet $ someone tells us otherwise.

So your dog is only a year in February? So 9 months now? That may still be young for any displays on his part, although what I really believe is that natural suspicious , guarding tendencies WOULD be evident at this point. He may not be down for a big showy display yet, but you would "know" what his tendencies are, if you know what I mean.

I think in time he will BARK at least to strangers snooping around....even my EB will do that. That is probably all you want. I know for a fact one of mine would go for it if someone was snooping around the house, and it can be a liability and a worry. I have all my gates padlocked etc. so someone doesn't wander in.

Get your hand out with your palm facing up so you can collect your bet. You can put your eyebrow down, nobody wants to see that. Training a dog to be suspicious is fine, the how its trained can be an issue. Some dogs are naturally more suspicious than other dogs. Here comes the rub, there's always a rub. The place inside the dog's head where the suspicion comes from is more important than the suspicion itself. See both a confident stable dog and a fearful unstable dog can have the same amount of innate suspicion. The difference is the degree and threshold at which the natural suspicion is displayed. Its not easy for the lay/pet owner to see or know the difference. You like to romanticize what a dog was bred to do and what it's natural tendencies are. The truth of the matter is in order to maintain the inherited genetic traits in regards to temperament and function one has to breed dogs towards that end. One would have to test their dogs for those traits in order to breed them into the next generation. How many Bull Mastiffs breeders are testing their stock in man work? You can read a breed standard and a breeds history all day and romanticize various attributes of your dogs to that standard and history, but without the knowledge to properly assess those attributes through training and testing you're only left with romantic notions. When one participates in this type of training they are learning and can start to see that some qualities that their dog has that they once thought were all that and a bag of chips are really something that leaves them saying oh crap. Kellee your dogs could be the bomb and are everything you claim them to be, but without working and testing them you're just blowing hot air.

I agree with this. ( see above in bold) As a matter of fact, one of the brothers is confident and one I feel bases any type of response on what is probably fear. Not that he is a bag of nerves, but there is a difference between the two and it is easy for me to see. I know for a fact in the case of any real threat, the less confident one would high-tail it in the other direction. What do you mean by "the degree and threshold" at which natural suspicion is displayed? I do agree with your statements regarding breeders breeding for a particular temperament. My comments in the other thread regarding breed characteristics were generally to support my point that I feel all dogs are not on the same page in all ways. Meaning, even if breeders have lost their way so to speak when it comes to breeding for certain characteristics......I feel that these do remain in some respect .

For example, if a breeder is breeding Border Collies, but isn't ever using them for herding, working, or whatother other venue may determine what breeding stock they own is great at doing their "job".......I believe the pups will still have those certain characteristics that one would expect Border Collies to have. ( for the most part) Would you be getting a STELLAR , kick-arse herder from this type of breeder? Well, probably not, but that Border Collie pup will probably show general characteristics of the breed. That is really what I was trying to get across.

I believe, yes you are correct, without working and testing them, I am blowing hot air. Let's not forget my two are crosses......certainly far removed from any standard. I have always owned registered dogs in the past, but these two are not. Do I see characteristics of Bullmastiffs AND American Bulldogs in them. Yes i think I do.

I do believe the one is PPD material by nature. I am searching for a venue available in my area for training, but haven't found one yet. I can honestly say however , I don't think I would CHOOSE to own a dog quite like him again. [/b]

Threshold refers to at what point the dog exhibits a behavior. Say we have 2 dogs that are placed in the same situation: a person stumbling around being loud. Dressed oddly and shaking a bag of cans. The person is 50 feet away and shows no interest in the dogs. By the way the person is moving the person will end up coming closer. Let's also say that both dogs have the same response to the situation. The dog that responds first while the person is further away has a lower threshold to the stimulus than the dog that responds when the person is closer.

Degree refers to the type of response. Use the same example as above. Let's say the response is a threat display (end of the leash barking). So neither dog responded at 50 feet, but the first dog responded at 40 feet and the second dog responded at 10. The first dog shows a lower threshold to stimulus at a higher degree than the second dog.

forever_pit · 11-18-2009, 12:58 PM

Kellee, you do try to say a lot about sport work and weight pull and such - things you have never tried and have admitted you don't know anything about. So why bother commenting on them? If your ideas come from no experience and no training (I mean you don't even ask questions about it, just presume that you know what you are talking about) then they are not really based on anything concrete.

It is kind of akin to my taking part in an art criticism debate: I don't actually know what I'm talking about but I can pretend to keep up and play along.

2bully · 11-18-2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kellee

I also believe the sport is just that. A game. Now it is unfortunate that I have one of those dogs that, um....may accost someone at the door. SO I take MANY precautions ( which are a pain) to see that never happens to the mailman, innocent salesperson , etc. IF an intruder wandered in my house in the middle of the night.....yes he would bite them I am certain. He would bark first, etc, but if push came to shove yes he would accost that person.

What are the precautions that you take? If any of them involve having to put the dog up when company arrives you do not have a PPD candidate. A person that is at your door doesn't pose a threat, someone who knocks on the door poses no threat by simply knocking on the door.

chipinsc · 11-18-2009, 01:13 PM

Is the OP still around ? i was perusing this thread & noticed he hasn't posted since Feb.... How have things turned out ?

Kellee · 11-22-2009, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forever_pit

Kellee, you do try to say a lot about sport work and weight pull and such - things you have never tried and have admitted you don't know anything about. So why bother commenting on them? If your ideas come from no experience and no training (I mean you don't even ask questions about it, just presume that you know what you are talking about) then they are not really based on anything concrete.

It is kind of akin to my taking part in an art criticism debate: I don't actually know what I'm talking about but I can pretend to keep up and play along.

What I think we are really talking about is dog behavior, drives of various types, temperament, etc. Based on knowledge of these things...I can form an opinion about Sch training. Like, come on. Comparing this to art criticism?

Re: the OP disappearing....it is a pattern isn't it? Why ? because most of you act like after doing a bit of bite work you know it all. Most ( yes ) come across as condescending and border on insulting.

Sorry you don't like I have an opinion, and just because I don't have Jagger doing bite work *yet* doesn't mean I haven't been around. When I do, I'll be sure to film a vid for ya. I still can voice opinions on what I know of dog behavior.

2bully · 11-22-2009, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kellee

What I think we are really talking about is dog behavior, drives of various types, temperament, etc. Based on knowledge of these things...I can form an opinion about Sch training. Like, come on. Comparing this to art criticism?

Re: the OP disappearing....it is a pattern isn't it? Why ? because most of you act like after doing a bit of bite work you know it all. Most ( yes ) come across as condescending and border on insulting.

Sorry you don't like I have an opinion, and just because I don't have Jagger doing bite work *yet* doesn't mean I haven't been around. When I do, I'll be sure to film a vid for ya. I still can voice opinions on what I know of dog behavior.

While we may be talking about dog behavior, drives, temperament, and even psychology there are many different disciplines on those subjects. I've noticed that alot of people disappear after hearing things they don't want to hear. Most come on hoping to get a slap on the back and an "atta boy" just for posting. Most people think they know it all and are willing to think outside their own narrow box. I've said it before but I'll say it again "ain't my job to put my thoughts, opinions, knowledge, and/or posts in the way the poster wants the info I give".

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11-18-2009, 12:58 PM	#56 (permalink)
forever_pit Senior Member Distinguished Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: SE FL Posts: 5,440	Kellee, you do try to say a lot about sport work and weight pull and such - things you have never tried and have admitted you don't know anything about. So why bother commenting on them? If your ideas come from no experience and no training (I mean you don't even ask questions about it, just presume that you know what you are talking about) then they are not really based on anything concrete. It is kind of akin to my taking part in an art criticism debate: I don't actually know what I'm talking about but I can pretend to keep up and play along.

11-18-2009, 01:13 PM	#58 (permalink)
chipinsc Senior Member Distinguished Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,687	Is the OP still around ? i was perusing this thread & noticed he hasn't posted since Feb.... How have things turned out ?