Big time biting

Thor · Jun 8, 2006

I have encountered a new problem with Zeus. He is now starting to VICIOUSLY bite us if we try and remove something from his mouth he is not supposed to have. It started a few days ago when he was choking on a bne and I tried to get it out, and he attacked me like Cujo -- which has never happened. Broken skin, bleeding all over the place. I figured it was an isolated incident, but then my wife tried removing some bone he found on a walk and he attacked her as well (blood everywhere). We have always handled him while eating, to help prevent such a thing.

On a similar note, he tends to bite my wife all the time. He never bites me (except this once) or anyone else, but continously bites my wife. She can ust be sitting there and he goes and bites her. A lot of it is playful nibbles (attention getters), but every now and then he chumps her good. He listens to her with all commands (almost more than others). My wife thinks he might be attracted to the lotion she wears, because he is almost obsessive with it.

Very frustrated, need some tips. We tried spray bottles, but he doesn't even flinch. Tried bitter apple on her shoes, but he thinks that is a good snack.

halo · Jun 8, 2006

I don't know what to tell you on this , But I do know if he is biting ad drawing blood like that it is not a good thing. How old is he? How old was he when you got him? Were you upset at the time you were taking the bone away? Was anything different about this time?
As you can see you need to assess the situtation. I would see if their is a behaviorist around that maybe you could talk to on this on.

yungster · Jun 8, 2006

Sorry to hear this... wish I knew what advice to give.

elke · Jun 8, 2006

Thor said:
He is now starting to VICIOUSLY bite us if we try and remove something from his mouth he is not supposed to have.

He needs to learn the command "leave". This is one of the first things I taught Stymie. When he has something that you want him to drop, the first time say it really loud & strong to frighten him into dropping it. Then praise him with "good leave". I even use this when playing to reinforce it, I tell him to leave to give me the ball and always praise him when he does.

Good luck.

Family of 5 · Jun 8, 2006

WHOA! this is not good (which I'm sure you know)

You better be making a decision and quick before someones child gets hurt.

Ever think of a shock collar?

angie7349 · Jun 8, 2006

On a similar note, he tends to bite my wife all the time. He never bites me (except this once) or anyone else, but continously bites my wife. She can ust be sitting there and he goes and bites her. A lot of it is playful nibbles (attention getters), but every now and then he chumps her good. He listens to her with all commands (almost more than others). My wife thinks he might be attracted to the lotion she wears, because he is almost obsessive with it.

How does she respond to being bitten? If she yells (particularly if she has a high voice) or starts jerking around, then she could have unknowingly turned him bitting her into a game. :shock: No biting even nibbles are NOT allowed in my house Tora can lick until the cows come home but if the corner of a tooth hits me she is in time out...I know that seems extreme but I would rather it be clear no teeth anytime ,anyway!!! EVERYTIME he bites give him a firm NO and STOP PLAYING WITH HIM!!!!! Put him in a closet or where ever is safe for him but no fun for 3-5 mintues it won't take long before he stops.Now for vicious biting he may think that he is the boss therfore he is correcting you for breaking his rules.Is he on the NILF program

Chris · Jun 8, 2006

sounds like you have a dominant male there who is food aggressive. You have to address the problem now while he is still a puppy and at a manageable size. It has NOTHING to do with your wifes lotion. He does not want you near his prized bone and is willing to attack you to keep you away. You have to prove to him that you and your wife are alpha in the house, and that you control his food, play, everything. I'm not sure of his age, he sounds rather young but I would at least read about a strict NILIF program (Google "Alpha dog boot camp" without the quotes and click on the first item for a good program you canprint out). If he is too young for the program now he will need to be in one later, so bookmark it. You also have to be willing to give very firm corrections. For instance if he goes to bite him grab him and pin him to the ground belly up, hold him there until he calms down. He will definitely fuss, and squirm, and be generally unhappy about the situation but you and even your wife moreso need to be firm with him to establish yourself as pack leaders while the dog is young. If he thrashes while you are pinning him down, hold him by the neck, don't cholke him per se, but hold him firmly so he can't thrash his head around and bite at you. While you are correcting him tell him firmly "NO TEETH" or "NO BITE", so he learns this command means stop biting. Give this command everytime he puts his teeth on someone. You need to do this EVERY time he snarls, growls, bites, or lunges for you or your wife. When he eats a bone or food you should be able to stick your hand in and take it away at any given point.

Also, I don't know if this actually works but my father taught me to do it when i was younger and I have done it my entire life. Spit in your dogs food before you feed him. In the pack, the alpha male or leader would eat off a kill first then all other dogs would eat. The alpha male's saliva would be all over the food so by spitting in his food it reinforces you as the alpha subconciously in the dog's mind. Again, not sure of the validity to this, but it sounded believable to me and can't hurt anything.

I've been around bully dogs my entire life, however I am not a trainer and don't claim to be one. This is just how I would handle the situation, I'm sure others will have other advice. Good luck.

PaulaEdwina · Jun 8, 2006

I concur with the NILIF, but I think getting in a dogs face (using things like a scruff shake or a scruff hold) when he's being agressive can go either way. He might back down or he might test you. The thing is that you would have to stick it out to keep your position. So I tend to go with the less agressive assertion of dominance. In this case I would hand feed this dog. Everything he eats should come from your hand and by everything I mean everything.

As for the shock collar - again things can easily escalate. And you guys talk about how stubborn this breed it, so I'm betting the odds of escalation are higher.

JMO
Paula

angie7349 · Jun 8, 2006

PaulaEdwina said:
I concur with the NILIF, but I think getting in a dogs face (using things like a scruff shake or a scruff hold) when he's being agressive can go either way. He might back down or he might test you. The thing is that you would have to stick it out to keep your position. So I tend to go with the less agressive assertion of dominance. In this case I would hand feed this dog. Everything he eats should come from your hand and by everything I mean everything.

I understand where he is coming from on doing an Alpha roll if it is still a pup...A pup will wiggle the 1st few times bc you are saying that I am boss but I would never recommend this for an adult ..If it is puppy I think it is a good way to communicate quickly that your day is done as a head dog....But a roll should never be violent you do have to be firm but it should be gentle the dog should not be hurt in the process....But I think that it works wonders when started YOUNG in addition to NILF..That is what I do with Tora and she rolls like a little ball now but it has always been a part of her life and she gets belly rubs too so it isn't hand to hand combat for us

Thor no matter what you choose to do about it make 100% sure that you are consistant -consistant -consistant -consistant -consistant and your wife too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chris · Jun 8, 2006

PaulaEdwina said:
I concur with the NILIF, but I think getting in a dogs face (using things like a scruff shake or a scruff hold) when he's being agressive can go either way. He might back down or he might test you. The thing is that you would have to stick it out to keep your position. So I tend to go with the less agressive assertion of dominance. In this case I would hand feed this dog. Everything he eats should come from your hand and by everything I mean everything.

As for the shock collar - again things can easily escalate. And you guys talk about how stubborn this breed it, so I'm betting the odds of escalation are higher.

JMO
Paula

Yea and from what I understand this particular dog may be a little too young for a shock collar. I have never heard of using a shock collar on a dog that was under 6 months old. Thats not that it hasn't been done and worked, I just haven't heard of it. Also, using a shock collar doesn't enforce yourself and your wife as alpha in the house to a puppy that young as it doesn't include direct contact with the dog.

Having said this, at around 6 months old a shock collar might be a good investment for obedience and distance training.

msvette2u · Jun 8, 2006

I concur with the NILIF, but I think getting in a dogs face (using things like a scruff shake or a scruff hold) when he's being agressive can go either way.

Where the dog has bitten and drawn blood I'd not think about an alpha roll or scruff shake. I'd definately take EVERYTHING away from the dog until it can be trusted again.
Your dog thinks it owns things and that is not good. You own EVERYTHING in the house, including it's food. You need to remind the dog of that. Without you the dog would die and it needs to be reminded of that.
Feed it by hand. Each time you do, make it SIT first and stay patiently sitting throughout the entire handfeeding process. DO THIS every time, no matter how boring/old it gets. Do not give it treats unless it sits and you can take the treat away. If it guards, it loses the treat. Toys too.
If you don't get a handle on this now, you'll end up having to get rid of the dog one way or another.
Remember that YOU OWN everything, DOG OWNS NOTHING. Any resource guarding (even it's BED) loses the resource. Of course it has to eat so make sure it eats politely. Only out of your hand for the time being. That means you hold the dish and you take one piece of food out, have the dog sit then give it the piece. Repeat until the food is gone. If the dog is still sitting of course you can give it to the dog but if it gets up, have it sit again. It'll get the message.

Thor · Jun 8, 2006

I appreciate all the replies, and there are some good next steps. A shock collar is out of the question though.

As for the alpha-rolling, this is the current strategy. He squirms for a minute, then settles right down. However, two seconds after getting back up, he is back to misbehaving. We tried the scruff of the next handling, but that just escalated the aggression.

As I mentioned, he only bit me the one time, and that was because he was panicking and choking. It was pretty bad, so I am sure I was very tense when trying to remove it from his mouth.

My wife has been working out of state, since day one when we got him, and has only been around on weekends (for the most part). She is now around more and more, and she migrates back permanently, so I think part of it might be exposure to her.

Knowing she would have limited exposure, we both have been diligent about establishing alpha roles (since day one). He will listen, diligently, to every command except “drop-it” or “no-biting.” These are the two set backs. He refuses to drop anything he doesn’t want to, but then will come, heel, sit stay, stand, shake, etc. every time you ask him (for treats or not).

Since day one he has been handled at eating times and he has never snapped once. Only thing he does is eat faster, which I realize is not good. I also was feeding him by hand, 3x a week, and that has never been a problem either. Vicious biting (the two times) has only been after this choking incident.

As for the wife being bit, these are just little nibbles to get her attention. I think I made it sound too much like he was attacking her in my first post. No skin breaking on these.

Family of 5 · Jun 8, 2006

Thor said:
As for the wife being bit, these are just little nibbles to get her attention. I think I made it sound too much like he was attacking her in my first post. No skin breaking on these.

I'm not sure the age of your pup but can you tell me why a shock collar is out of the question?

In you original post this was part of a quote "every now and then he chumps her good". Can you explain the difference between what "Chumps her good" and "like he was attacking" is?

angie7349 · Jun 8, 2006

Vicious biting (the two times) has only been after this choking incident.

I understand that I don't punish accidents either..

As for the wife being bit, these are just little nibbles to get her attention. I think I made it sound too much like he was attacking her in my first post. No skin breaking on these.

I realized that in your 1st post butI think that dogs live in a very black and white world..Either it is ok or it isn't .......Nibbling can turn into accidential biting.....As I am sure that you know, your dog has VERY POWERFUL jaws and a nibble to an adult dog could be a broken hand for you....

My wife has been working out of state, since day one when we got him, and has only been around on weekends (for the most part). She is now around more and more, and she migrates back permanently, so I think part of it might be exposure to her.

Knowing she would have limited exposure, we both have been diligent about establishing alpha roles (since day one). He will listen, diligently, to every command except “drop-it” or “no-biting.” These are the two set backs. He refuses to drop anything he doesn’t want to, but then will come, heel, sit stay, stand, shake, etc. every time you ask him (for treats or not).

If your dog knows what drop it and no-biting and he refuses then he is the boss...I realize that I am being harsh and I know none of this matters that much right now but if you are not ok with an adult doing it then you can not allow a pup to do it!! Unless there is something mentally wrong with your dog it is you or your family that is allowing/causing these problems..This breed is a huge trail in humilty bc if my dog is not preforming then that boils down to I am not doing my job.... I can not pin point what you are doing you will have to figure that out.....Since we have covered punishment how do you reward your dog?? DO you let me know that he is doing something right

I have friends that are all punishment and wonder why thier dog is misbehaving...Another side is how you reward him as well...

Thor · Jun 8, 2006

My reason for not liking a shock collar is from a bad experience with one on my dog when I was younger. I'd just prefer other methods.

I can see how my posts could be confusing. What I meant by "chumps her good" is with her socks, not her skin. Most bites are just attention getting nibbles/low-pressure bites, but "chumps her good" refers to grabbing her socks and not letting go (going back to the whole refusal to drop anything).

Cookies Mom · Jun 8, 2006

Thor said:
My reason for not liking a shock collar is from a bad experience with one on my dog when I was younger. I'd just prefer other methods.

I can see how my posts could be confusing. What I meant by "chumps her good" is with her socks, not her skin. Most bites are just attention getting nibbles/low-pressure bites, but "chumps her good" refers to grabbing her socks and not letting go (going back to the whole refusal to drop anything).

he's only 6 mo right. Say ouch and stuff a toy in his mouth. start taking thing out of his mouth while he is playing. mess with his food bowl while he is eating, take food out of his mouth, get him used to your hands in his mouth when he isn't nipping. hope it helps.

sajoseph · Jun 8, 2006

Geeeeez, I thought at first he was a big mean adult dog turned mean!!Lol, glad to hear he is 6 months old, you have time to save him!

I agree with most info given to you.

My Dixie is animal aggressive, and the trainer used to make her go into a submissive position(On her back) when she would act up, and this escalated her aggression, however, your dog may be too young for that, just something to think about.

I wish they could talk..................................................................lol.

Good luck, step up the training, he should be ok.

PeterC · Jun 8, 2006

shock collar.

Too many people use the e-collar as a punishment or correction. IT IS NOT!

It is a tool to teach a dog to do things FASTER than he normally would. YOU TEACH A DOG TO TURN THE STIMULATION OFF.

I have seen more dogs ruined TERRIBLY with the e-collar than any other tool.......that and the hand hitting the dog.

I had one pup of mine where the owner used a shock collar. The pup went berzerk. Some dogs, especially a well bred bulldog, sees pain as "more fight". escalation. Some dogs fold.........do you want your dog to fold and go into avoidance? This is a short term solution to a big problem.

However, I don't see this pup as a problem. I think it is a tad overly protective of his food, but no big deal. Just make him do things for his food. Make him earn it. Make your WIFE make your pup earn his food.

His aggression comes from the fact that he thinks he is never getting his food back or you are going to eat his food. SO, take his food away..........and TEACH HIM HOW HE CAN EARN HIS FOOD BACK. Make him sit or down. Then give the food back to him RIGHT AWAY! You just taught him two things. 1) the food will always come back if he does what YOU say. 2) It comes back quicker, IF he complies quicker. Speed.

:lol: :lol:
If he tries to kill you..............send him my way. :lol: :lol:

PS. at least your dog does not try to take you out because you have his tennis ball. LOL. I think you have nice dog. Work with it. Think like a wolf pack leader.

RED · Jun 8, 2006

Dont put a shock collar on him. Just keep letting him know who is boss. Sounds like he is a good dog to me, he just needs to know who the big dogs are in the house. He will continue to challenge you, just stick to your gus and everything will be ok. Please dont be like the others on this board and have him put to sleep or give him away. I will take him if it comes to anything like that.

RED · Jun 8, 2006

Re: shock collar.

PeterC said:
:lol: :lol:
If he tries to kill you..............send him my way. :lol: :lol:

Hey Im trying to lobby for this one........ :lol:

Big time biting

Thor

halo

yungster

elke

Family of 5

angie7349

Chris

PaulaEdwina

angie7349

Chris

msvette2u

Thor

Family of 5

angie7349

Thor

Cookies Mom

sajoseph

PeterC

RED

RED

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