are they cruel? Just looking for oppinions, thinking about getting one for lewie, he likes to attack cars when we walk, and he really lunges. I'm a big guy, and even I have trouble controlling him.
what do you think about pinch collars?
Brian P.
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The most I've ever heard about a dog doing to it's handler was an excite nip. The way you are making it out to be is that a dog trying to go & not being released will turn & maul it's handler. I find that not only disturbing but way off base. And I'm going straight off what you wrote so if there was more to it, I cannot respond based on what isn't there.Turtle said:
And I'm curious as to why you'd recommend grabbing your dog by his front legs & I'm assuming fliping him over in the middle of the street as a proper training technique vs. the use of a prong collar. IMO your way about it is to manhandle your dog to prove your dominance. I'm not quite sure how that's any better than the use of a prong.
And for the record, I own gamebred APBTs, a very very very alpha/dominant Shar Pei/Cane Corso mix, a Rottweiler, a Dogo Argentino, & an OEB. And the difference b/n them all is astounding. Therefore I cannot use the same training techniques on 1 dog that I used on the other. My APBTs are oh so easy to handle. I've never had a problem with them when training as they are very willing to please & very responsive. My Rottweiler is that way now but the guy I got her from trained both her & me for her first year of life. My Dogo is an idiot. The OEB is a much harder/stubborn dog to deal with. A prong collar was a vital tool in working him. And the Pei/Corso mix, well, let's just say that I'd be cussed off the board if I spilled all my training ways with this dog.
EDIT: & out of curiosity, what did that link have to do with anything? I'm not big into cockfighting, but as a resident of a state where not only is it still legal but it is still a big sport, I am familiar with it. But I'm failing to see the relevance in cockfighting/gamecocks & prong collars................
Miakoda
The bust went down during a cock fight. Could've been any number of different fights. You want more, google it. there is a fair amount.
As for the biting - I have seen many dogs bite - pits especially- if the handler doesn't release the dog after the other dog crossed the scratch.
I have never seen any of those crosses. I would have no idea. Most crosses that are worked here would be pit/ab/mastiff for game, and ab/pit/mastiff for the hunt. Not many fo them either. Most dogs I know don't go over 45 lbs.
I have seen an OEB in passing.
If you are game breeding, well, I wouldn't grab them, unless I had raised them. I would use a Halti with a Harness on a problem dog. If he is game, and will turn, then I am not interested in training him. I am interested in not getting bitten.
As for the domination through submission, that is the thing that you have noticed. Good. So many were dancing around that.
It IS a very dominating technique. When practiced from puppyhood, when you can control the dog without pain, it is very controlling and has a poweful impact on the dog.
As long as you use the same method, over and over, the dog is as conditioned to it as he would be to a collar command.
Let's face it. if the dog were inclined to violently confront you, a pinch collar wouldn't stop it. And a Halti provides a good degree of control, with a good backup for short muzzled dogs.
So if the dog is not going to confront you, you have no need of discomfort as a tool. And a Halti will control the dog.
Look, all this is about is that I feel that a Halti is better than a pinch. If all anyone can tell me is that it's the breed or they can take it, then I just won;t agree with it. I am not disputing the effectivness - I just don't agree with it.
The bust went down during a cock fight. Could've been any number of different fights. You want more, google it. there is a fair amount.
As for the biting - I have seen many dogs bite - pits especially- if the handler doesn't release the dog after the other dog crossed the scratch.
I have never seen any of those crosses. I would have no idea. Most crosses that are worked here would be pit/ab/mastiff for game, and ab/pit/mastiff for the hunt. Not many fo them either. Most dogs I know don't go over 45 lbs.
I have seen an OEB in passing.
If you are game breeding, well, I wouldn't grab them, unless I had raised them. I would use a Halti with a Harness on a problem dog. If he is game, and will turn, then I am not interested in training him. I am interested in not getting bitten.
As for the domination through submission, that is the thing that you have noticed. Good. So many were dancing around that.
It IS a very dominating technique. When practiced from puppyhood, when you can control the dog without pain, it is very controlling and has a poweful impact on the dog.
As long as you use the same method, over and over, the dog is as conditioned to it as he would be to a collar command.
Let's face it. if the dog were inclined to violently confront you, a pinch collar wouldn't stop it. And a Halti provides a good degree of control, with a good backup for short muzzled dogs.
So if the dog is not going to confront you, you have no need of discomfort as a tool. And a Halti will control the dog.
Look, all this is about is that I feel that a Halti is better than a pinch. If all anyone can tell me is that it's the breed or they can take it, then I just won;t agree with it. I am not disputing the effectivness - I just don't agree with it.
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Because you should never correct your dog for coming to you. So if the dog is breaking a down stay and coming to you (wherever you are) correcting him would be a bad idea. By taking the slower way in this case you are teaching without ruining any foundations that you already have.Lisa said:
As I said before, I use a prong. I have no problem with a well-timed and appropriate correction on a dog. But in this case it makes more sense to me to take the slower way around. Yes, bully breeds can be a bit . . . dense . . . when it comes to learning (especially compared to the quicker thinking herding breeds) but when they get it they will GET IT and will perform their newly learned task with a gusto! So you'll have a dog who is happy to do a down stay and who isn't afraid to break it when called to come back to you.
This is actually a topic that we talked a lot about in training tonight, so it's funny for me to sign on here and find this post
I say absolutely! Not every collar is suited for every dog. You find what works for you and your dog and go with it.puppycop said:
Thanks everyone for this thread, its been a great read so far. I found a book on Amazon (Beyond Basic Dog Training, Diane Bauman) that mentioned some of the techniques here (compulsive retrieve specifically) and thought it interesting that about 1/3 of the reviews were people saying the book was trash and that positive-only training was the only way to go, and the other 2/3 said the book was the best thing since sliced bread.
For what its worth, I'm planning on getting a prong collar for my OEB (like Miakoda's, my OEB is very head-strong). There are a couple behaviors that I want to work on correcting, and further OB that I want to do and want to make sure are done correctly. I can picture the look she would give me if I were to pick her up by the front paws, and I can only laugh about it. No way is my dog going to care one way or the other about something like that. I think Turtle qualified it by saying that it was most effective if used since puppyhood, but I still couldn't help but chuckle.
Other points brought up by Wrknrott and Lisa seem to all be spot-on and common sense to me. I especially liked the discussion about evaluating a dog through the training and how it handles the stress. It definately made me think to myself last night when I was working with my dog: "is she really getting this?". Thanks for the topic, great great read so far.
For what its worth, I'm planning on getting a prong collar for my OEB (like Miakoda's, my OEB is very head-strong). There are a couple behaviors that I want to work on correcting, and further OB that I want to do and want to make sure are done correctly. I can picture the look she would give me if I were to pick her up by the front paws, and I can only laugh about it. No way is my dog going to care one way or the other about something like that. I think Turtle qualified it by saying that it was most effective if used since puppyhood, but I still couldn't help but chuckle.
Other points brought up by Wrknrott and Lisa seem to all be spot-on and common sense to me. I especially liked the discussion about evaluating a dog through the training and how it handles the stress. It definately made me think to myself last night when I was working with my dog: "is she really getting this?". Thanks for the topic, great great read so far.
No Lisa. Tank accepts me as the leader.Lisa said:
You seem to be convinced that I am soft on my dog. Not at all. Tank is way too bullheaded for that. I just don't use prong collars, never did, and don't like them.
And I agree with 99% of your training advice as well. I just don't buy into the idea that they "need" pinch collars.
I do not agree with this. If you tell your dog to do something and it breaks, it deserves a correction of some sort. It doesn't matter if its coming to you or to another person, it still broke its command.SisMorphine said:
Why would the dog be afraid to break its down when you gave it another command?
I say absolutely! Not every collar is suited for every dog. You find what works for you and your dog and go with it.[/quote]puppycop said:
Of course its possible to have a reliable dog with out ever using a pinch, every dog is different. The pinch collar is a tool, not a guarantee your dog will be reliable.
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A prong is just another tool for training. Some don't require a prong, they just need a choke, some might get enough of a correction on a flat. depends on the individual dog, and handler really. I didn't start using a prong until my dog was about 2. Used it more for "cleaning things up".
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Well, I guess I just can't help but think that. These quotes by you tell me otherwise. Actually from some of your quotes it would be easy to assume that you are soft on your dogs because you are afraid of getting bit.
These are all your words. To me this sounds like you are afraid of getting bit.
In my world these are the actions of a soft handler....
Turtle, I honestly think we just interpret things ALOT differently. Your idea of hard and soft dogs and hard and soft training are obviously light years apart from mine. I think there lies a big part of our problem here. We are picturing two totally different things. I think we just come from different training backgrounds.Turtle said:
I will also not let fear stop me from training my dogs. By putting a GL on a dog that may come up the leash on their handler is masking the problem and not taking care of it so to speak. That is the easy way out and the act of a weak handler. I don't mean to be offensive but in my world thats exactly how I interpret that because thats how I have been mentored. We are all products of our trainers.
Lisa,
You are taking things out of context. I said that in reference to a game dog that has turned on me. I don't care what training you give, you don't want to get bitten.
"These are all your words. To me this sounds like you are afraid of getting bit." This statement is ignorant. So you don;t care if you get bitten? No biggie, is it?
Why are you so obsessed with this saying that what I do is "weak"? You yourself said that picking up a dog my the front paws or picking them up entirely would get some people hurt....now you are ask if I am afraid of being bitten?
"I will also not let fear stop me from training my dogs. By putting a GL on a dog that may come up the leash on their handler is masking the problem and not taking care of it so to speak. That is the easy way out and the act of a weak handler."
SO slapping a collar on the dog to control them instead of using your hands and direct contact with the dog isn;t weak how? If I use your logic, I would say that YOU are afriad to handle your dog without a pinch.
You are COMPLETLY ignoring what I am saying - using a collar in the way you say transfers the correction from the HANDLER to the COLLAR.
If you are so concerned with correction of your dog, do it YOURSELF!!!!!
So before you can split any hairs in this post, let me clarify:
1) I DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU NEED A PINCH COLLAR TO CONTROL YOUR DOG.
2) THE HANDLER, AND THE HANDLER ALONE, SHOULD BE THE SOURCE OF CONTROL FOR THE DOG.
You are taking things out of context. I said that in reference to a game dog that has turned on me. I don't care what training you give, you don't want to get bitten.
"These are all your words. To me this sounds like you are afraid of getting bit." This statement is ignorant. So you don;t care if you get bitten? No biggie, is it?
Why are you so obsessed with this saying that what I do is "weak"? You yourself said that picking up a dog my the front paws or picking them up entirely would get some people hurt....now you are ask if I am afraid of being bitten?
"I will also not let fear stop me from training my dogs. By putting a GL on a dog that may come up the leash on their handler is masking the problem and not taking care of it so to speak. That is the easy way out and the act of a weak handler."
SO slapping a collar on the dog to control them instead of using your hands and direct contact with the dog isn;t weak how? If I use your logic, I would say that YOU are afriad to handle your dog without a pinch.
You are COMPLETLY ignoring what I am saying - using a collar in the way you say transfers the correction from the HANDLER to the COLLAR.
If you are so concerned with correction of your dog, do it YOURSELF!!!!!
So before you can split any hairs in this post, let me clarify:
1) I DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU NEED A PINCH COLLAR TO CONTROL YOUR DOG.
2) THE HANDLER, AND THE HANDLER ALONE, SHOULD BE THE SOURCE OF CONTROL FOR THE DOG.
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I use my hands all the time when I train my dogs. Just in a different manner than you describe. At my club we call it "hand -tronics" and it is good for the dog to know that you can get them in a number of ways, and not just when they have the pinch on so don't get me wrong I do know how to use my hands in training. I just disagree with alot of what you describe because alot of what you describe to me seems soft. To somoene else your methods may seem cruel. Its all in the interpretation.
Turtle, you said yourself that you have no interest in training a dog that you think is going to tag you. Your priority is controlling the animal and not getting bit...avoidance of the problem. My idea is training the dog not to do it again, and the prong collar is one tool that can be used to do that. A GL is going to do nothing to teach your dog that biting is not acceptable because you can not give a correction with a GL. Like I said before, GL's are for guiding a dog around and therefore does aboslutely nothing to deter a dog from biting in the future. That is not training, that is avoidance.
As far as all these "game dogs" that have tried to nail you..are these ACTUAL game bred dogs with a pedigree of real fighting APBT's or are they just cross bred "pitbull" mutts some punks decided to use for fighting??
Turtle, you said yourself that you have no interest in training a dog that you think is going to tag you. Your priority is controlling the animal and not getting bit...avoidance of the problem. My idea is training the dog not to do it again, and the prong collar is one tool that can be used to do that. A GL is going to do nothing to teach your dog that biting is not acceptable because you can not give a correction with a GL. Like I said before, GL's are for guiding a dog around and therefore does aboslutely nothing to deter a dog from biting in the future. That is not training, that is avoidance.
As far as all these "game dogs" that have tried to nail you..are these ACTUAL game bred dogs with a pedigree of real fighting APBT's or are they just cross bred "pitbull" mutts some punks decided to use for fighting??
Lisa,
This subject isn't biting dogs. For that matter, a pinch collar, as I said before, will not stop a dog from biting you.
Sure. I don't want to get bitten. Sure, I have no interest in training human agressive game dogs. And yes the lines have been fighting and hogging since before I was born. Some would bite, some would not. I would say that the percentage of biting game dogs is no higher or lower than other lines.
And I never claimed, anywhere, to have a game dog try to "nail" me. Read my posts slower, you are getting them wrong.
And yes, if a dog is trying to bite me, my prioity is to not get bit. Anything else would be ignorant. We have been over this one.
"As far as all these "game dogs" that have tried to nail you..are these ACTUAL game bred dogs with a pedigree of real fighting APBT's or are they just cross bred "pitbull" mutts some punks decided to use for fighting??"
Once again you are wandering into personal territory and using derogatory terms. And I said that I rarely saw crosses. Tsk Tsk Tsk.
This subject isn't biting dogs. For that matter, a pinch collar, as I said before, will not stop a dog from biting you.
Sure. I don't want to get bitten. Sure, I have no interest in training human agressive game dogs. And yes the lines have been fighting and hogging since before I was born. Some would bite, some would not. I would say that the percentage of biting game dogs is no higher or lower than other lines.
And I never claimed, anywhere, to have a game dog try to "nail" me. Read my posts slower, you are getting them wrong.
And yes, if a dog is trying to bite me, my prioity is to not get bit. Anything else would be ignorant. We have been over this one.
"As far as all these "game dogs" that have tried to nail you..are these ACTUAL game bred dogs with a pedigree of real fighting APBT's or are they just cross bred "pitbull" mutts some punks decided to use for fighting??"
Once again you are wandering into personal territory and using derogatory terms. And I said that I rarely saw crosses. Tsk Tsk Tsk.
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4,186 Posts
wow, i can't believe this has gone on for 5 pages. different strokes for different folks, same goes for the dogs. a pinch collar, as the elf said, is simply a tool as is a gl. NOBODY wants to get bit (except for red, but he is strange :tard . i have used both a pinch and a gl, some customers prefer them and as such you must know the proper use. i would prefer to use neither but hey, whatever gets the dog trained . and no, you do not need a prong collar to train.
this statement interestes me tho
. i have used both a pinch and a gl, some customers prefer them and as such you must know the proper use. i would prefer to use neither but hey, whatever gets the dog trained . and no, you do not need a prong collar to train.this statement interestes me tho
umm, what do you do with a dog that is "game" and may bite you then, just not train it? or do you advise the animal be put down? cuz neither one of these are a feasible answer. imagine what a customer would say if i told them that their dog may bite me so i would not train it! :lol:
Sorry for the confusing syntax. Let me clarify - I am not interested in any dog that will try to bite it's handler, or is human agressive in any other way than territorial/owner protection. Gamebred or not, bully breed or not.
Why?
It's a lawsuit waiting to happen.
I have no good solution to it. If you want to train such a dog, that is good. Such a dog needs all the help it can get.
And the only point I am trying to make is just what you said - a pinch collar is not needed to train a dog.
Why?
It's a lawsuit waiting to happen.
I have no good solution to it. If you want to train such a dog, that is good. Such a dog needs all the help it can get.
And the only point I am trying to make is just what you said - a pinch collar is not needed to train a dog.
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Turtle said:
snotty little ill mannered pocket munchers are the bread and butter of the training business, i certainly would not be turning them away. insurance was made for lawsuits but since you (me) are the only ones here that would be getting bite i don't see how that even comes into play :scratch:
anyway, to each their own
"snotty little ill mannered pocket munchers are the bread and butter of the training business, i certainly would not be turning them away. insurance was made for lawsuits but since you (me) are the only ones here that would be getting "
LOL
Yah true- I'll give you that one about the little dogs -
LOL
Yah true- I'll give you that one about the little dogs -
Worknrott -
I am probably wording it wrong. Lemme try again -
The dog knows that you are the one holding the leash connected to the collar. So when corrected, they know that you are correcting them WITH the collar, instead of the correction coming from a direct action of the handler.
I dunno if that helps any, or changes the way you are looking at it.
I am probably wording it wrong. Lemme try again -
The dog knows that you are the one holding the leash connected to the collar. So when corrected, they know that you are correcting them WITH the collar, instead of the correction coming from a direct action of the handler.
I dunno if that helps any, or changes the way you are looking at it.
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