New Pup, first 24 hours

We received a new pup (possible name is Nor Cal's Leavin U Envious) Envy, We got her from Christine at Beckett's American Bulldogs. Envy is a DOC (CGC, GDT, TT, Ranked IDT3/5, PH, and OFA Good) X TODDY (CGC, TT, CD1). Envy came in from Arkansas to San Francisco, late at night.

When she came in.


Her first full day was eventful, she was worked on and off throughout the day. She loves to retrieve, all kinds of objects (tennis ball, metal bell, french linen tug, mop head ball, and a tug rope). She was also socialized with the other dogs, ourselves, and friends.

She played tug with synthetic, and burlap rags, and a very soft rope tug. Then came feeding times where we mixed in some environmental imprinting. The first, and second feedings involved noise distractions from a baby popper toy, and a ball which makes loud sounds. The third feeding we feed her in a kids plastic pool filled with plastic balls. After this we took the food bowl out and threw a hand full of food in the pool. This is where she really got into the pool and felt comfortable.

Envy eating in the pool



Envy w/out the food bowl


Envy getting into finding the food


After her feeding, we started to work focus, sit and come here through lure rewarding. She has plenty of food drive and really enjoyed this. She exhibits good focus for a 12 week old pup on her first 24 hours, and picked up the command, "ASI" (sit in french). I can't wait for tomorrow.


working asi w/ me


working focus w/ Amy

Congratulations on the new puppy! Curious as to why you chose a pup from this breeding?

In regards to the imprinting, do you do this will all your puppies and why? Is it to see what their reactions are to the enviornmental stressors (as a means of evaluating the puppy) or, is it to condition the pup to it to make them better suited to the enviornmental distractions involved in the sport work you do? If a puppy shows weakness to any of the distractions, do you continue to condition the pup to it by exposing them to it during feeding time? In other words "desensitize" them, or do you just make a mental note of it and see how the pup later handles it when its introduced during bitework? I am just curious because at both clubs I have trained we have never been encouraged to do any of this sort of stuff with puppies. The distractions we use during our training are always introduced on the field without any conditoning at home prior to it.

Look forward to your reply.

PS how is Malo doing?

Lisa,

The reason we choose Envy is pedigree generated, I really liked this breeding on paper. My favorite part is the mother Toddy. Toddy's father is out of Turbo (BST, an Ike Sch3 grandson, and Predator great grandson) X Maizie (a Steve's Hammer Sch1 littermate sister). Toddy's mother is a Niko (Sch3) daughter. Niko is a Predator (Sch3) X Maizie son. Toddy's mom is out of Nena, who goes back to Turbo, Ike, and Predator (3X's). I have always liked Maizie and what she produces, not to mention the amount of Predator 5x's, Ike 2X's, and Turbo 2x's in the pedigree.

Envy's father Doc, is a Boyd's the Hammer (BST2) X Fred Dutton's old dog Maxine (also known as Sure Grips Miss Grip; a larger then I like female, but a drivey tough female, out of Freddie, and Predator's littermate sister, Symmes Sadie). Doc's mother is a pure Painter female out of Koura's Knightmare and Rode Hawg's Lola, both Fujimo Bandit offspring out of different mothers, going back to a Bama Boy influence.

To your other question Lisa, I do imprinting with all my pups, difference being my personal pups start where I am at now around 5 weeks. This is not to say she is too old for this just that I start earlier. I did not start breeding, doing imprinting to the excess I do now, but I have seen the benefits of proper imprinting and conditioning, and I am amazed trainers where not doing this like it is seen now 10+ years ago. A mistake IMO by all trainers. myself included. The imprinting is done to condition them, for anything I can think of latter in sport work. I know in sport work the dog is going to see, hear, feel, and experience a multitude of different distractions. I believe involving it into lets say a package of items I can put into the developmental stages of a pup. This makes for a much more rounded pup latter in life. An example, I know the clatter stick can have a negative response to a young dog, during his/her first experience even if properly presented. So why not introduce the stick during the developmental stages. What I do is use half of a swimming noodle (very soft) and introduce it during feeding time. The noodle is used as a reward so the pup is eating and I am petting the pup with the noodle, while giving praise to the pup. The pup at this time is becoming desensitized to the noodle which goes from petting to taps to the side and rear muscles of the pup. I also change items after the noodle is readily accepted to other types of items such as the clatter stick, soft stick, part of a small tree branch, etcetera.

If you go in my garage you will see different types of footing stationed to the garage floor. These types of footing are plastic, a strip of the plastic popper stuff used to store breakables in moving boxes (I can not think of the proper word for this I am brain farting at this time), metal, tarp, or whatever else I see as I am at the store that will work for the pups. I just recently purchased a slip in slide that I will introduce latter DRY, and when I see the pup is ready I will try prey driven tug work with the pup with it on. Another idea I have is to introduce a tent, to the pup, then latter work the pup in the tent. A mondio course I saw had a large tarp tent the dog had to go inside to work the decoy, a lot of the dogs failed to engage the decoy, due to refusing to enter the enclosure, or once engaged saw the enclosure move, and they then disengaged and exited the enclosure.

Pups like all mammals pick up things quickly both negatively and positively, at a young age; much like a young child. So if desensitizing the pup to these stressors makes it easier for a handler at a latter date, then why not do this. I am not reinventing the wheel behaviorists (such as Dr. Ian Dunbar), and sport trainers such as Ivan, and Michael Ellis have been doing things similar to this for some time now. Training evolves much like everything else in life, this type of training may seem far fetched at this time, no different then a pet trainer ten years ago telling their clients to never play tug with their dog because it will make old Fido mean, now these same trainers are using tug exercises stolen from sport trainers as the gospel in one of the ways they teach obedience. While many others of us sport trainers have been doing this for some time now. So ten years ago was this bad, no it just wasn't universally instituted. I believe in using common sense when training dogs, and I believe imprinting, and conditioning serves a valuable purpose in the development of a sport pup into the sport dog.

I recently bought "The Koehler Method Of Guard Dog Training." Now while I believe, and hopefully all of us, believe the methods used in this book are barbaric at best, I will also say these techniques and this book was at one time the gospel of dog training. The training is strictly geared towards compulsion, with no real reward, this while it shakes heads today and if I saw someone come to train with me in this style would receive a harsh re-education on concepts of training, and if I saw it again they would be shown where to exit. This is still readily used by many IMO uneducated or afraid of change dog trainers. I believe compulsion serves a purpose in cleaning up a learned theory in a dogs life training, but it is not a way of teaching a dog. The learning theory of a dog, to me is like at artist painting a picture, and while I do believe I can get a dog to perform a task quicker threw compulsion, the picture it paints lacks detail, and is sloppy. While a dog trained through more of a lure reward style, works happily to please its owner not due to the fear it has of what the handler will do if it does not perform (which eliminates the nervousness in the dog), the dog will shortly pass the dog trained through compulsion in the task presented due to the amount of time it takes to clean up the finished project. During a more intense, and difficult technique I believe the dog will learn the basic concept much quicker due to its learning style, and the dogs eagerness to learn all new items presented.

Everything I stated above goes back to learning theories, and I see imprinting and conditioning to all stimuli very beneficial in the overall picture of the dog. Imprinting and conditioning gears you to an area of developmental learning where the puppy is eager to learn. While associating a majority of what could be scary new things in a positive manner. This can be the difference it a beautiful picture or something you toss in the garbage can when finished.

Lisa you know, I typically would write something like this in a PM, but I hope it can be beneficial to others. To everyone you may disagree with this please feel free to state your opinions why you do or do not agree, or on what you do or do not like in regards to these theories. These theories are not my own, I did not re-invent the wheel, they are just theories I agree with to assist in painting an overall picture of what I believe a dog should ultimately be.

2bully said:

Marcel, I enjoyed the post regarding imprinting. I was lost on the pedigree portion but then again ABs aren't the breed I'm working with :lol: . With the imprinting do you follow a prescribed theory (like Biosensor) or did you just pick and choose techniques that suited you? I know we touched on this in pm. Could you post links to some of the possible theories that would be beneficial to those of us interested.
On a side note I recently scored a book from the Goodwill. How To Raise A Puppy You Can Live With, authored by Clarice Rutherford and David H. Neil. The book made reference to the Biosensor method developed for military dogs. They offer instruction in some of the method as the book primarily focases on pet owners. I would appreciate any links or book suggestions on the imprinting subject by anyone.

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Here are a few links that I reference and used with my first litter. They are young but I already see a difference in the pups I have started with at 8 weeks. My female is very confident and very inquisitive without becoming nervous at new sounds, situations and new experiences. I hope to see more benefits from using these methods...

http://www.taylordcanines.com/id26.html

http://www.taylordcanines.com/biosensor.html

http://www.taylordcanines.com/biosensor.html

http://www.k9events.com/pups1.htm



Sahrene

Thanks for the links.

Beautiful pup, love her name too. Best of luck to you!

Lisa - Why are you so opposed to helping a dog through issues instead of just letting them exist? Isn't the purpose of training to make the dog the best it can be at a certain thing? It's not covering up an issue, it's working through it to make a stronger dog. Not everything is set in stone. If a dog is intensely fearful and will turn into a fear biter then i understand, but if a dog is just a bit wary of certain things what is the harm in desensitizing these dogs to the stimuli causing the problem?

Steph, I believe there is a difference between condioning and OVER condtioning. When it comes to bitework I beleive the conditioning should be done on the field. I do not feel it should be something I should have to do at home. Where do you draw the line? I feel it has to be drawn somewhere.

I also have no problem with people who will do this. To each their own and its up to everyone to decide for themselves how much extra time they are willing to put into their dogs in order to get them to reach a certain level. If one is not breeding, it really doesn't matter how much you have to condition a dog. BUT, from a BREEDING STANDPOINT I believe too much conditioning can be counterproductive to a good breeding program because too much conditioning does not allow you to see the true temperament of the dog.

I think people mis understand me alot. I could care less how hard people want to work with their dogs to get them "used" to something. That is everyones perogative. But, when breeding is involved I believe that is a whole different ballgame. Now, that being said, even though I have no current breeding plans, I still chose to draw the line at the training field when it comes to conditoning for bitework because that is my personal choice.

Another reason I tend to comment alot regarding temperament is because alot of people read these threads (not just the OP) and I think it is important for newbies who are contemplating breeding (alot of those on this site) to understand what the difference is between a dog with a breeding temperament and a pet quality temperament. If this issue is never addressed (like in that "is this normal thread") newbies wanting to breed read that its ok for a dog to be skittish (because people are too afraid to be honest for fear of hurting feelings) and these same people go ahead and breed their skittish dog. People emphasize health alot when it comes to breeding, and I believe that temperament should be emphasized just as much when it comes to breeding dogs. This is not something people should be afraid to talk about.

Lisa, from your point of view how much of the temperment is genetic and how much is enviromental? Do you think its possible to condition a dog with a poor temperment or weak nerves to a point that they could compete in a pp sport? Wouldn't imprinting or conditioning allow one to see weakness earlier rather than later?

attitude said:

2bully said:

Do you think its possible to condition a dog with a poor temperment or weak nerves to a point that they could compete in a pp sport? ?

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it is not only possible, it is done all the time. good luck with the new kid marcel

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Yes, sadly, it happens all the time and the worst part about it (IMO) is that once these dogs become "titled" many times they are bred over and over just because of that title. That is why it is so important to look beyond the titles. Titles can be bought (literally), people can trial on their home fields with their regular training helpers (that their dog has been "conditioned" to feel confident on), people can condition their dogs to anything that stress them etc. Titles are only a good starting point but only mean so much. If you expose your dog to something enough times, no matter what it is, you are usually going to get some improvement, sometimes even enough to get the dog thru a trial! Sport titles alone are not a good evaluation of a potential breeding dog. It's only a part of it.

2Bully, I agree with Lisa, and Cathy's post. You can take a so/so dog and with enough training you can put a title on it. I have also seen it done several times. Go to a trial and see how many are competing on their own field, with their club decoys, you will be amazed. Of this group see how many are only competing at this venue, due to the extra crutch/advantage. I am not knocking them for it per-say, it is a start, and no matter what it takes commitment to title a dog from the handler. Again though as a breeding prospect it does have its huge disadvantage.

I stated above I choose a dog based off of it's pedigree. I have also worked some and seen many of the dogs in Envy's pedigree work in person. I truly originally wanted a pup which went back to double bred Oden X Maarley daughter bred to Waldo to work with, I found one Richard's Phoenix she was started with a Sch BH, but I didn't reach a deal in time and she now belongs to a breeder in Sweden. I have no problem with this due to I love the pedigree of Envy, and I wanted something which matched up at least to start it off well with malo, but I will only find out if she makes it in time. WORK COMES FIRST, and to me work is everything.

Lisa, I wouldn't worry about me being offended by your comments I believe they are well thought out and sound similar to my own a few years back. I am always researching, I am just as happy sitting through a seminar from a qualified canine behaviorist as I am a working seminar these days, well almost. I use a lot of conditioning with a pup not necessarily to desensitize everything, but so I can start the dog younger. We (my girlfriend and I) started her Mal early in a similar way. She is just at 12 months, I thought she was 14 months until I spoke with my girlfriend today; woman always remember everything, totally off subject. We are deciding if we want to go for her PDC at the PSA trial latter this month. If it where not for the change in training style's we may have held on to her for a year before we started her, and not set to compete as we are close to now. All the conditioning, and imprinting, yes they will help with distractions, and it will help mask somethings, but only just as much as any good trainer, decoy or handler will do in training. There will always be those dogs which title, but truly lack courage, just as much as there will always be that hard, prey driven monster sitting in someones backyard, or laying on there couch 20+ pounds over weight.

When you condition and Imprint at an early stage, I find it an easier way to choose if this dog fits what I want at a much younger age. I will wash a dog out, it sucks you have started a bond, but truly I took in the dog as a working prospect. The worse that happens to this wash out is someone receives a young dog, with good OB, socialized, a lack of hard prey drive, all things which make a great pet quality dog after they are sterilized. I do not wish to wait until a dog is 2 years of age to decide if it has the qualities I desire, I would rather find out much earlier.

I condition and Imprint to test my prospect. I do test to cover all areas I will later work the dog in; OB, agility, and bite work. This is all performed under the use of lure rewards, whether it is a ball, treats, or tug. I want a dog with that IT quality. No matter how much conditioning I do I can not get that IT quality. This is only inside the dog, but I will work to the best of my ability to pull out that IT if I can. I love a hard tough dog, one that after a decoy is done working it they grit there teeth due to the damage the dog left them with and say, "I loved that dog, he/she is one tough SOB." An example of this is I decoyed for the Western States Police Canine Association, police K9 trial on Saturday. There where 54 dogs in the protection phase of the trial some very hard dogs, and some well lets be nice and say not so hard. I will not give out any departments but there was a dog which caught me on a flee with my arms tucked to not present an arm, this dog came up and took a bite to the right side of my back fully, leaving one hell of a bruise and a puncture wound threw the suit. It hurt like hell, and I loved this Malinois. Latter in the day same scenario, I worked a dog which followed me barking, so I put the dog in some pray and gave it a bite. You could not give me this dog for free, and it is a working dog on the street, scary for the officer. I hope this dog is strictly for NARC. The last dog was conditioned for schutzhund which was obvious by the bark and hold, and only wanting to bite the left forearm. No matter, how much imprinting or conditioning you do, there was nothing which would have made this dog strong for the street, or given it that IT QUALITY.

There are a lot of trainers which use imprinting and conditioning to enhance the learning behavior in the early stages of development. Just look at the trial results for Schutzhund USA, NARA, or Mondio USA you will see countless dogs coming from either Ot Vitosha, or Loups De Soleil. Both of these kennels integrate a lot of imprinting and conditioning, and emphasize this to there students. I agree this is only a philosophy on learning behavior, but all training is based on philosophies, some work better then others for each individual.

I do not believe breeding is hurt, if one continues to breed for the ability the dog versus the title on a dog. I would discourage anyone for breeding to a dog due to his/her title, but at the same time I would gladly lend assistance to someone to assist in achieving there set goal with there canine prospect. When it comes to if imprinting or conditioning hides a weak dog, possibly, but so does good training, good decoys, and good handling. I believe this can disguise more then imprinting or conditioning does. So yes the example of the stick, I can take a dog to the field, and yes others may take some time to work the stick through several sessions and my dog may do extremely well the first time, as I see it cu dos to me, because a good decoy will do the same with some sessions on a dog, without imprinting to the extent I do. Imprinting, and conditioning are tools, no different the, good training, good decoys, and good handling. We all use crutches or we would train without any type of reward, and zero compulsion (no verbal, correction collars or E-collars), the day training can be done this way sign me up I am very interested.

I believe but do not agree with, the only way to get the exact answer to the best hard dogs, is to hold onto each dog for a prescribed age, test them exactly the same, by the same decoy. The dog can have no imprinting, this means no socialization, along with work in OB, bite work, etc. This would be the ultimate test for breeding. I would never want to see something like this happen though, because it is not humane to the animal, I enjoy working my dog, plus the good dogs will never go the distance they could have gone. It may take away the weak dog, genetically, but I believe as handlers it is are job to do are homework, at the same time remembering all dogs produce dogs which lack the drive for sport work especially in the bully breeds.

This is for the newbies, if you are looking for a dog for sport-work RESEARCH from the dogs to your breeder. If you want a sport dog do not purchase a pup from someone which works and breeds for catch dogs, and to the contrary the best sport dog doesn't mean it can catch a cold if it tried. Look at breeders with experience in the field you want to try, they hopefully breed for these qualities. Do not stop there research those who have purchased dogs from them, and work them. I n the bully world people like to pass high drive around like it exists everywhere, BS, it doesn't. Just because they worked there dog once and it bit the rag, sleeve or suit does not make it high drive. I at times wonder if HIGH DRIVE IS DETERMINED BY HOW FAST A DOG RUNS IN ITS BACKYARD after talking to some breeders. Do your research, the more you do the better it will pay off, do not be afraid to call people with known names in bully breeds they are just people no different then you. One thing with all of us on here we love to talk dogs or we wouldn't be here, just remember that before you research.

Lisa thank you for your response, and I will put it back to you, I hope none of this offended you. This is always the one thing I hate about leaving things on paper, you do not get the opportunity to speak directly with someone, so you can not read there facial expressions to see if they may take offense. Keep bulldogging, and keep up with your responses they are important for others to hear. Discussion on dogs when open and productive just make us all better dog people. To anyone reading these posts I hope this was productive just as well as all posts pertaining to this have been for me.

I enjoyed your post Marcel. I'm here to learn. I also enjoy Lisa's posts as well.

What's exactly for you a bad temperament of weak nerves ?

I've read this a lot of times around the forum, without knowing exactly what you are refering too, what is for you a bad tempered dog ... be clear ?

If you want a sport dog do not purchase a pup from someone which works and breeds for catch dogs, and to the contrary the best sport dog doesn't mean it can catch a cold Marcel this kind of makes me mad... Dont worry i am a sensible person so i am gona be civil, BOTH my boys are from Hog lines, Joshua on MOms side on one boy and the other guy has Joshua on top and bottom, and they both do EXCELLENT in schutzhund. They both have excellent drives, great nerve, energenic, agile, loving, friendly. Both our trainers who both have competed at world levels say Boris is a great dog and has amazing heart.So i really dont agrree with that you said above
And i must say i am confused cause American Bulldogs are Catch dogs, born and bred, and created for this purpose. And we r all now using them for working venues, so how can you say not to go to hog lines sicne the breed started for this???

Doucettom,

I do train my dogs in French, but no, I do not speak French. You can blame it on my Grand Father his generation was the last to speak French fluently in my family. I am born and raised in California, so I have never needed, nor been taught the language, but very interested. I have been to dog training seminars over the years, where the instructor only spoke French. After a couple of days of hearing it you can pick up a few words similar to Spanish IMO.

In regards to a bad temperament in a dog, I refer to it also as a weak dog. I believe a weak dog is one which is shy, lacks nerve, can be skittish. I refer to this in regards to on the sport field, but as a dog which will back down from a strong decoy (after being properly trained). A dog which lacks prey drive for me in what I want to accomplish would be a weak temperament, this is not to say as a pet dog it would be a weak temperament. As a pet dog handler may have a harder time adjusting to a medium to high prey drive dog, to the point of turning him/her into a shelter.

Tia,
Let me better explain what I meant. When I referred to looking for a SPORT DOG do not purchase one from someone who works and breeds for catch dogs. What I meant is someone whose line is completely built upon catch dogs. Lem Miller's line is not one of those. Mr. Miller has and at times does do both. I have worked some dogs over the years I have really liked which are out of Lems line. He breeds for a more overall line, with catch dogs as his primary goal I would say, but he does not souly go in this direction. When I referred to the best sport dog doesn't mean it can catch a cold, is if you are looking for a pure catch dog go to someone like Alan Scott at Owl Hollow Kennels, or Gary Fuller. They would be a better choice then going to someone with a breeding of two awesome titled sport dogs. Alan, Lem, Gary Fuller and others concentrate and breed for the qualities that make a great catch dog, while others in the sport world breed for a strong working dog. While both lines are breed to be athletic, and have prey drive, they are breed off ability for what they do with them. This doesn't mean you cant get a dog from a heavily influenced hog line and find a strong working candidate, but what it does mean is it is much easier to find a strong sport dog from a kennel which breeds for the traits that make a great sport dog, and visa verse. If someone like an Al Banuelos didn't find a Predator, which is from a strong hog line and make it a sport line, we would not have AB's doing what they do now in sport work. I just believe it is much easier to go to a strong man line and find a good sport dog, then it is to find one from a good catch line. If someone wanted a dog from me primarily to do hog work I would refer them to someone with a line more suited to there needs this isn't to say my line can not do the function, but the truth is I don't know. I can tell them I breed for an athletic dog, but I prefer a dog with as little to no animal aggression as possible. So truly I am unsure if they would excel in this area. They are unproven there, I do not want to tell them my dog is really high drive when working the man so he would definitely be strong on a hog, because I really don't know, nor will I ever know, since this is something I am not interested in. This doesn't mean I frown on hunting or hunters, I worked bird dogs for a sporting dog kennel for several years, just not my thing. At the same time they can not tell me there dogs are hard on the man if they have never worked the man, or if they have only worked there once or twice, they also truly do not know.

I hope this better explains this, it was not intended to offend someone who is working there dogs out of a heavy hog line of AB's, like yourself. I have seen pictures of your dogs work over the past several months, and I believe you are doing wonderful things with your dogs. I wrote what I did for the newbies I do not want to see someone make the mistake of not getting a dog they liked because they picked a hog dog when they wanted a sport dog. I like the performance line as much as anyone. I like the old Painter, Kershner, Koura, and Rode Hawg lines (doesn't mean I respect all of those who own these lines, because I am firmly against any form of dog fighting, and I do what it takes to put those who are, where they belong). I have never had the oportunity to see Joe Arvigo's female AB, Marley work other then videos but I am amazed by her athleticism and drive to get to the man. Plus dogs such as Gubby, Oden, Waldo, and others from this line, or some of the other performance lines which produced dogs like Mad Max, Benny and others. The West Coast Hybrid started the working AB sport dog, but it doesn't mean it has to come from the Hybrid line to be a great man dog, to the contrary there are several other strong working lines out there which are less tapped in, if we look.