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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know pit bulls are sort of predisposed to dog aggression (I know some might never show that) because of their past with being trained and breed to fight.

but what about AB's, why them? Is it because they are part of the bully breed? Is it because that long long ago all the blood lines sort of come together or am i wrong in that?
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
why I'm asking is becuase I was explaining to someone why to not take their dog to a dog park and I explained the dog aggression then someone asked where I got that information about AB's cause they didn't think AB's had it in them.
 

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Thats a good question Kate, I would like to hear everyones thoughts on that as well.

I know that alot of Ab's were also used for fighting dogs, the painter line is known for that. Alot of the performance standard type, do have Pit in them.

Other then that I don't really know. I know alot of people say they aren't supposed to be really dog aggressive, because they are supposed to be able to work with other dogs on a hog hunt ect.

I think that Ab's aren't are whole lot more dog aggressive then any other breed, its just that they can do alot of damage, IMO
 

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I think many ABs have pit blood in them. The more standard or performance types seem to be the ones with more pit. Pit was bred into the AB to give them more "gameness", make them more agile and have more stamina when working, especially catching hogs. They had to be big and powerful to bring the hog down and had to work with other dogs while hunting so it couldnt really be dog aggressive, hence only a little bit of APBT. I think ABs can only be 1/8th pit? Or maybe 1/16th? Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Take for instance Blackchamp's ABs, the have pit in them. Check out the history on their site: http://www.blackchamps.com I know Loki has a nice amount of pit in her. Look at her mom:

 

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Any breed of dog can be dog aggressive and there is usually more than one reason that can cause that.

AB's are dominant by nature (at least the good ones are :wink: ) so many may not start a fight but *most* will definitely not back down to a challenge....as subtle as that challenge may seem to a human.

Sometimes dog aggression can even be a fear response due to a weak character or even a learned response due to a past experience.

Dog aggression is not limited to bullies...just more prevelant due to their dominant nature.
 

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kogeki said:
I think many ABs have pit blood in them. The more standard or performance types seem to be the ones with more pit. Pit was bred into the AB to give them more "gameness", make them more agile and have more stamina when working, especially catching hogs. They had to be big and powerful to bring the hog down and had to work with other dogs while hunting so it couldnt really be dog aggressive, hence only a little bit of APBT. I think ABs can only be 1/8th pit? Or maybe 1/16th? Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Take for instance Blackchamp's ABs, the have pit in them. Check out the history on their site: http://www.blackchamps.com I know Loki has a nice amount of pit in her. Look at her mom:

Pit bulls are also used for hunting wild boars, and more than one are used at a time also.
 

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I think any dog can be dog aggressive. Socialization is so important, I personally expose my dog to as many situations as I can. I bring her to pick up my daughter at pre-school, and let all the little 3-year-olds pet her. I am standing RIGHT THERE to make sure she shows the proper response, and can remove her if she doesn't. She meets other dogs all the time, and again, I'm ALWAYS IN CONTROL. Try it on-leash. See how they do. It's always better to know, hey, my dog doesn't get along with other dogs, therfor, she stays home. Hurrah for responsible owners!
 

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Lisa said:
Any breed of dog can be dog aggressive and there is usually more than one reason that can cause that.

AB's are dominant by nature (at least the good ones are :wink: ) so many may not start a fight but *most* will definitely not back down to a challenge....as subtle as that challenge may seem to a human.

Sometimes dog aggression can even be a fear response due to a weak character or even a learned response due to a past experience.

Dog aggression is not limited to bullies...just more prevelant due to their dominant nature.
Good post. Bulldogs earned their "bully" reputation, but dog aggression is found in all breeds. Terriers run a very tight race with the bulldogs (as an overall group of dogs).
 

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I think the true American Bulldogs look like the Johnson type. I read and I can find the book title and author if you want on American Bulldogs, that it wasn't until after American Bulldogs originated that irressponisble owners would breed them with Pit Bulls. To me, they are two very different breeds and I would never buy a so called "pure bred" AB from a breeder if the parents looked like Pit Bulls. You can most likely tell from the tail of the AB too, if it above the hocks it has probably got some Pit in him, if it is long, thus the symbol for the AB, it is probably a pure bred.

Your probably going to say, well Abby looks like she does, well she could and I have no information to show whether she does or not as I rescued her from a shelter and she came w/ARF papers. I researched the parents but came up with nothing.
 

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ambulldogpup said:
I think the true American Bulldogs look like the Johnson type. I read and I can find the book title and author if you want on American Bulldogs, that it wasn't until after American Bulldogs originated that irressponisble owners would breed them with Pit Bulls. To me, they are two very different breeds and I would never buy a so called "pure bred" AB from a breeder if the parents looked like Pit Bulls. You can most likely tell from the tail of the AB too, if it above the hocks it has probably got some Pit in him, if it is long, thus the symbol for the AB, it is probably a pure bred.

Your probably going to say, well Abby looks like she does, well she could and I have no information to show whether she does or not as I rescued her from a shelter and she came w/ARF papers. I researched the parents but came up with nothing.

I think alot of people are going to disagree with you there, including me. I don't think the majority of the heavy big boned Johnson type dogs, are athletic enough to do what the American Bulldog was bred to do. Some of those big bully dogs just aren't agile enough to run after a bull and hold on to it and bring it down. Never mind Hog hunting. I think the johnson type was used and bred more to be a guard dog type. I don't think it was Irresponsible to have pit blood in there at all.
 

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Bremner53 said:
ambulldogpup said:
I think the true American Bulldogs look like the Johnson type. I read and I can find the book title and author if you want on American Bulldogs, that it wasn't until after American Bulldogs originated that irressponisble owners would breed them with Pit Bulls. To me, they are two very different breeds and I would never buy a so called "pure bred" AB from a breeder if the parents looked like Pit Bulls. You can most likely tell from the tail of the AB too, if it above the hocks it has probably got some Pit in him, if it is long, thus the symbol for the AB, it is probably a pure bred.

Your probably going to say, well Abby looks like she does, well she could and I have no information to show whether she does or not as I rescued her from a shelter and she came w/ARF papers. I researched the parents but came up with nothing.

I think alot of people are going to disagree with you there, including me. I don't think the majority of the heavy big boned Johnson type dogs, are athletic enough to do what the American Bulldog was bred to do. Some of those big bully dogs just aren't agile enough to run after a bull and hold on to it and bring it down. Never mind Hog hunting. I think the johnson type was used and bred more to be a guard dog type. I don't think it was Irresponsible to have pit blood in there at all.
Actually, your probably right. That was a "educational" guess on my part, lol. But the rest of what I said wasn't, the Pit Bull Terriers are terriers not working dogs. They've got a lot of energy and are fiestier. The gentleness and calm nature is a major part of what makes the American Bulldog. Perhaps they did mix them in the past for more game. My opinion is that it's irresponsible to mix the Pit Bull Terrier and the American Bulldog. They've been mixed in the past and don't need to be mixed now. (Btw, i'm talking about the BYBs that breed Pits and ABs together). We can't change what the farmers (breeders) in the past did, it's really what makes up the American Bulldog.
 

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ambulldogpup said:
Bremner53 said:
ambulldogpup said:
I think the true American Bulldogs look like the Johnson type. I read and I can find the book title and author if you want on American Bulldogs, that it wasn't until after American Bulldogs originated that irressponisble owners would breed them with Pit Bulls. To me, they are two very different breeds and I would never buy a so called "pure bred" AB from a breeder if the parents looked like Pit Bulls. You can most likely tell from the tail of the AB too, if it above the hocks it has probably got some Pit in him, if it is long, thus the symbol for the AB, it is probably a pure bred.

Your probably going to say, well Abby looks like she does, well she could and I have no information to show whether she does or not as I rescued her from a shelter and she came w/ARF papers. I researched the parents but came up with nothing.

I think alot of people are going to disagree with you there, including me. I don't think the majority of the heavy big boned Johnson type dogs, are athletic enough to do what the American Bulldog was bred to do. Some of those big bully dogs just aren't agile enough to run after a bull and hold on to it and bring it down. Never mind Hog hunting. I think the johnson type was used and bred more to be a guard dog type. I don't think it was Irresponsible to have pit blood in there at all.
As far as I know, although the AmBull has been around for quite some time (despite it's recent breed recognition), it was a breed formed by using the blood of APBTs among other breeds to make it what it is today.

As for a lot of the Johnson dogs, unfortunately they are suffering the same fate of the APBT in that people think bigger is better although these bigger dogs are not very athletic, are incapable of working properly, & come with a variety of health issues due to being bred just for size. (notice I did not say "all"). However, who knows what is mixed with some of the Johnson bulldogs as well as the monster "pit bulls" do gain their size (although mastiffs come to mind quite quickly :wink: )

Actually, your probably right. That was a "educational" guess on my part, lol. But the rest of what I said wasn't, the Pit Bull Terriers are terriers not working dogs. They've got a lot of energy and are fiestier. The gentleness and calm nature is a major part of what makes the American Bulldog. Perhaps they did mix them in the past for more game. My opinion is that it's irresponsible to mix the Pit Bull Terrier and the American Bulldog. They've been mixed in the past and don't need to be mixed now. (Btw, i'm talking about the BYBs that breed Pits and ABs together). We can't change what the farmers (breeders) in the past did, it's really what makes up the American Bulldog.
 

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Miakoda said:
As for a lot of the Johnson dogs, unfortunately they are suffering the same fate of the APBT in that people think bigger is better although these bigger dogs are not very athletic, are incapable of working properly, & come with a variety of health issues due to being bred just for size. (notice I did not say "all"). However, who knows what is mixed with some of the Johnson bulldogs as well as the monster "pit bulls" do gain their size (although mastiffs come to mind quite quickly :wink: )
If you go back to the original lines, Johnson + Scott's dogs were identical. Johnson decided to take his breeding in a different direction, breeding the 'larger' bullier bulldogs. You can breed for size without having to outcross mastiff blood back in. Bulldogs are part of the mastiff family anyhow, if you breed + cull the undesired characteristics (smaller dogs) then you can end up with larger dogs by pulling on this part of the bulldog's genepool. The only dog that was outcrossed in the Johnson line was a throwback registered AKC english bulldog named West Champs High Hopes. If mastiff blood was ever infused, you would see bulldogs with black masks, so it makes it difficult to breed mastiff blood directly back into the gene pool without a ton of a lot of inbreeding in order to breed out the undesired characteristic (black masks on mastiffs) which would be extremely difficult to do.

If you look at it, Standard type dogs, Old Southern Whites, etc, are all actually LARGER than Johnson dogs (much taller and longer), but it's only an illusion that Johnson dogs are larger. Johnson dogs are thicker, bullier due to the english bulldog blood that was infused as well as the way they were bred to be wider, however - they are overall much shorter than Standard type dogs. For example: One of Razor's Edges largest female dogs was a standard type dog (Armstrong). She was a good solid 115 pounds or more if I remember correctly. If you want to get more technical though, hybrid's tend to be even LARGER than either Johnson or Standard types, as most have the height and length of the Standard type, but the extra thickness of the Johnson type. This isn't true in all hybrids though, depending on how their genes work out, but most are known to be larger than pure Johnson or Standard types alone.


there's toooooooooons of rumours out there about dogs that were crossed into AB blood, but a lot of it is heresay, some of it is true. There is pit blood in most ab's. Or - there is AB blood in most pits, depends on how you look at it. Pits were created from bulldogs + terriers though. Some people say that there is bull mastiff blood, short haired saint bernard, catahula, pitbull terrier, great dane blood, etc mixed into AB during old breeding practices when the AB was in danger of extinction. Truthfully though, besides West Champs High Hopes and a number of southern whites, noone will ever really know what may have been used to resurrect the breed back in the day, or at least noone will say it officially.
 

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Wow that was a very good post, looks like you know how to do some research, or have done it already which is cool. Isnt it also true that the scott type or standard type AB's are more like the origional bulldog that came from europe to the US? Which is your preference?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thank you guys for all the information. I posted as much as I could and the girl came back with a link of an article saying it is okay to take bullys to the dog park :roll: I didn't even read it.... didn't want to waste my time
 

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bigut64 said:
Isnt it also true that the scott type or standard type AB's are more like the origional bulldog that came from europe to the US? Which is your preference?
Yes, but even they have changed over the years. On the one side, Johnson bred larger to larger (also rumoured to have outcrossed to bullmastiff) and Blackwell somewhat changed the stardard back in the day (Blackwell wanted to change the standard to 120pnds when all of his dogs were around 80pnds, most likely outcrossed in his breeding program - rumoured to have used short-haired st. bernard blood ...he's no longer breeding ambull's now though and is now breeding the Boeroel). Other people such as Hines, Leclerc, Scott, Painter have mainly bred for performance and have used some pitbull blood in the past, which was definately not a bad thing in any way (some have rumoured to have used catahula blood to some extent - Scott bred Catahula's when he was also breeding ambull's, he had lots of diff dogs in his yard so I've read). I find a lot of standard type breeders around these days don't necessarily have what you would call the traditional standard type bulldog. I've heard rumours and even seen first hand, breeders in the States and byb's here in Canada that cross pitbull blood into their ambull's in order to dodge BSL, so then they can still have their pitbulls. Happening more and more now I think, I've seen it with the Presa Canario as well. With all the registries out there, it is fairly easy for someone to get away with registering a false pedigree. Don't quite understand the reasoning behind wanting to do so though...

But yeah...I think Johnson females make the best pets. They are the sweetest and suckiest of them all. But personally I prefer hybrid males though because I like big athletic dogs, they are more athletic than a pure johnson, they are more workable, healthier (live much longer than pure johnson dogs), they can have working drive yet still be laid back enough to be a good pet/companion. I still love my bully females though, there is nothing in the world more loving and sweet. There are differences in personality in all litters, but for the most part - the above holds true.
 

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WoW

I'm not even sure where to start. To mention gameness and the AB together is way out of context. The AB is a very powerful and sometimes rough dog but not game. Yes some lines have pit in them and Black Champ is one of them but in there case there was a goal in mind and it was done above board. True bulldogs in nature will be dominate dogs and in some cases just plain ole nasty toward other dogs. In some cases environment will play a role and some are flat out dog aggressive. When you break it down to type or lines most of that talk is political and flat out not true as who is more aggressive and so on. The painter lines were more dog aggressive at one point and the Johnson dogs are usually larger and heaver boned. I have owned most types of these dogs over the past 20 years and by no means know it all but there is a ton of LEGEND and LURE surrounding these dogs. Some use it to help puppy sells and others as fuel against other breeders and we all know there is good and bad dogs and breeders.

Bull breeds are a special breed and make very stable and healthy pets and working dogs if bred selectively and given the proper up bringing. I've had AB's and a few Pitts over the years and they are awesome but I've always said they are not for everyone. The average owner or potential dog owner has know idea what these dogs are capable of they are not Labs or Shepard’s. These dogs possess abilities most others do not and are capable of causing great damage to other animals and people, extra care and control is required with these breeds. This is not ment to offend or be-little anyone just what i have saw in these dogs and my opinion in some cases.
 
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