[JohnJ]

What do you think about the directions AB's are going? The AB looks like it's being pulled in every direction possible. Rumors of outcrossing and hanging papers. Some breeders seem to be going the direction the EB went and others look like they're breeding Pit Bulls.
What will it all mean in 50 years?

 

[Tina]

Garbage dogs like most other breeds. Hopefully a few true healthy and recognizable lines will keep it right, but it's the same bs with EBs and all the designer bulldogges these days.

 

[JohnJ]

I don't even know what an AB is supposed to be anymore!
I know what you mean about the other bulldogs too. I'm just a little more knowledgeable about current AB breeding practices than I am with OEB, EB, OVB, HIJKLMNOP.
Will the true Bulldog please stand up??

 

[forever_pit]

What is a "true bulldog" to you John? Is it about conformation? Temperament?

IMO, the bulldog is a utilitarian dog that should do a wide variety of tasks when asked - the most important of which, to me, is protection and hunting.

Historically, these dogs have been tied with other bulldog breeds so why does it matter if that relationship continues? Why does it matter if one AB looks more bully and another looks more Pit Bull-ish or Houndy? Are you aware of how different working Labradors look from one another? Why is that? Because they are not being bred for appearance, they are being bred for work.

Tina, I think it is quite an assumption to say that ABs that are outcrossed with other dogs are going to be "garbage dogs". Are y'all aware that some of the MOST SUCCESSFUL working dog kennels and bloodlines in the world hang papers regularly? Why? Because of the conformation registrations, it is common knowledge that these folks would breed any working dog to another working dog to improve their lines. I'm not just talking bulldogs either.

 

[JohnJ]

What is a "true bulldog" to you John? Is it about conformation? Temperament?

IMO, the bulldog is a utilitarian dog that should do a wide variety of tasks when asked - the most important of which, to me, is protection and hunting.

Historically, these dogs have been tied with other bulldog breeds so why does it matter if that relationship continues? Why does it matter if one AB looks more bully and another looks more Pit Bull-ish or Houndy? Are you aware of how different working Labradors look from one another? Why is that? Because they are not being bred for appearance, they are being bred for work.

Tina, I think it is quite an assumption to say that ABs that are outcrossed with other dogs are going to be "garbage dogs". Are y'all aware that some of the MOST SUCCESSFUL working dog kennels and bloodlines in the world hang papers regularly? Why? Because of the conformation registrations, it is common knowledge that these folks would breed any working dog to another working dog to improve their lines. I'm not just talking bulldogs either.

This kind of proves my point.
Where is the AB going to end up? Will it be a Bully dog who can do the work? Will it be a Pit mix that does the work? Will it be a Bully freak who can't work? Does conformation really have a place in the Bulldog world?
Everybody has their opinion on what the Bulldog should be, does that negatively effect the breed as a whole? Or will all the diversity eventually come together and produce a better specimen?

And I don't condone hanging papers. It's a con, pure and simple.
On the other hand, I'm not exactly opposed to an outcross either. At this point it looks like a necessity.

 

[forever_pit]

This kind of proves my point.
Where is the AB going to end up? Will it be a Bully dog who can do the work? Will it be a Pit mix that does the work? Will it be a Bully freak who can't work? Does conformation really have a place in the Bulldog world?
Everybody has their opinion on what the Bulldog should be, does that negatively effect the breed as a whole? Or will all the diversity eventually come together and produce a better specimen?

And I don't condone hanging papers. It's a con, pure and simple.
On the other hand, I'm not exactly opposed to an outcross either. At this point it looks like a necessity.

Is it? I don't agree with that, not always. Not when the breeder is honest with the buyer and the only reason papers are hung is because of registration requirements. Because that dog cannot compete in a sport unless it is registered with X kennel club.

Do all the dogs need to look the same? Why does it matter if they don't? Every breed has bloodlines that work better than others or that look slightly different, why is it such a big deal in bulldogs?

I guess I just don't care about what anyone else does with bulldogs outside of my yard and the dogs I am into. I know what blood works for me and I know the breeders of those dogs are on the same page as I am as far as what they are looking for. That's all I need. It has zero effect on me if others are breeding for bully freaks who can't breathe sitting outside. So I don't worry about it - I don't worry about that which I cannot control.

 

[mstngchic2012]

A - you bring up some really great points. I used to be all about sticking to "purebred" working dogs - no outcrossing or mixing of breeds. But the more reading I do and the more I talk to you and Mike I see that outcrossing is necessary and can be a great advantage if done correctly. But if it's about improving the working dog (not just bulldogs) then why is it important for breeders to hang papers for conformation registries? Form follows function, correct?

Mods this is a really great discussion and may be better suited for the debate/discussion section rather than the health section...


EDIT: I was writing this as you posted. So there are sports in which dogs can't compete unless they are registered? I did not realize this... I realize that dogs who aren't registered with a kennel club or are fixed can't compete in conformation but didn't realize sports wouldn't allow unregistered dogs...

 

[forever_pit]

But if it's about improving the working dog (not just bulldogs) then why is it important for breeders to hang papers for conformation registries? Form follows function, correct?

In many sports, and countries a dog must be appropriately registered in order to compete. The Dutch Shepherd is a good example of this. In order to compete in KNPV, they have to be FCI registered. What does FCI have to do with KNPV? Well, nothing except for that little piece of paper. So breeders who are working with bloodlines that have had say a shot of Pit Bull or Great Dane or any other dog that would work, hang the papers to get the dog FCI registered. Dog goes on to train and compete in KNPV and many of those dogs go on to be police or military working dogs.

True FCI does, look different and act different.

 

[JohnJ]

may be better suited for the debate/discussion section rather than the health section...

You're probably right about that. I saw it as a discussion about the eventual health of the AB but the topic is much more broad than health.

Hanging papers isn't right IMO. It's dishonest to somebody. Be it the registry or the buyer, I see no difference really. That would open another debate. Should said registry allow outcrosses? Doesn't hanging papers to produce a better working dog.... put those who actually follow the rules at a disadvantage?

 

[forever_pit]

The health of the AB is about health testing and being honest with yourself about your stock. It doesn't matter if the dog is bully or standard, you can produce healthy dogs.

John, no offense, but it is clear how little you understand about how registries and the working world actually function. If I'm breeding great dogs what do I care if it puts somebody else at a "disadvantage"? They should probably get their shit together and breed some great dogs instead of mediocre dogs that can run in left hand circles.

The NKC does allow outcrossing, but you cannot register the dogs as purebred AB until they are 7/8 pure. That can be reached in three generations. There are pure ABs now that are down off of Pit Bulls.

 

[luckysarah]

I am so anti registry lol

I used to have working terriers and we used the JRTCC to register the working dogs, this particular registry holds more merit with working titles then they do with conformation, they also allow outside blood as long as the dog can compete and earl working titles...a "champion" in the JRTCC is a dog who can earn working titles.

In fact you can't even register litters from birth, the dogs have to be a certain age to be registered.

So the focus is taken off the paper and on to the dogs working ability/health/temperament.

I wish we had a registry like this for bulldogges, and all breeds for that matter. It needs to be less a business and more about the people who are in there every day getting their hands dirty with the dogs.

 

[JohnJ]

I'm not claiming to know much about the working world or the registries they're working under. I was aware of the 7/8 rule.

Maybe I should take steroids to be a better athlete. Who cares if others don't. They'd better get their act together if they want to compete...
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on it, which isn't a big deal. It will create a better working bulldog in the long run right?

Anyway, where do you think the breed will end up in 50years? Do you have an opinion on it or are the lines your working in your only concern?

 

[JohnJ]

I'm posting from my phone so things are a little goofy.
I don't want you thinking I took offense or anything. After reading my post I think it could be misconstrued as having a "tone" to it.

 

[forever_pit]

Anyway, where do you think the breed will end up in 50years? Do you have an opinion on it or are the lines your working in your only concern?

I think there will be variety like there is now. You're not gonna get diehard bully or performance people to suddenly switch sides. But perhaps things will look up, there are some bully kennels starting to test their dogs in protection. If people could look past conformation and their egos (because everyone in bulldogs wants to be THE ONE to fix the breed) then things will be fine.

Personally, I am only concerned with the working dogs. I will continue to have dogs come and go off my yard as I test them and they fail out. Dogs that stay are staying for a reason. That's all I really care about.

 

[JohnJ]

Thanks FP.

 

[Steph]

Good discussion here. Since I know diddly squat about this kind of stuff, it's nice to learn about it from different viewpoints than just one.

From what I have read, I tend to side a little more with Al. I think having proven working dogs is SOOOOO important if we want to continue having healthy dogs in this breed, and all breeds, for that matter. I feel like outcrossing, NOT FOR LOOKS, but for function is a good idea as long as a breeder is being honest to their selves.

If I was to ever purchase an AB from a breeder, I would most definitely look for one that works those dogs regularly. I would want to see both the dam and sire in action. Even for a pet, I want my dogs to be capable. Like Al said, I could care less what the dog looked like as far as standard or bully.

And whats hanging papers mean?

 

[JohnJ]

And whats hanging papers mean?

It's faking a pedigree.

Can't good working dogs be produced without outcrossing? Is outcrossing just a shortcut to a better dog? ( when done correctly )

I'm just trying to learn people's opinions and thoughts on the matter. Just a newb trying to figure things out. I don't claim to be knowledgeable at all on the subject. Hell this is my first bulldog!!

 

[jo&mera]

I was surprised by the differences in OEB when I first started looking . . . I went OEB because they are supposed to be healthier/live longer, yet I wanted the English look . . . are my dogs going to be healthier, live longer just because OEB is their "name?" Probably not . . . I did not know squat, I know a little more now because of you guys.

But I'm sitting here thinking horse again! LOL!
Why do we feel a breed/ABs need to look alike?????

We raise Quarter horses & Paints, same bloodlines, Quarters are solid, Paints are spotted . . .

I raise certain bloodlines because I like to game/barrel race, I like turn & burn with brains & good conformation . . . I mix, cow, raise & halter . . . my favorite bloodline is Skipper W and his breeder was Hank Weiscamp, Weiscamp bred cow & race type horses with beautiful conformation, and Skipper W horses usually have golden retriever type temperaments . . . I used to run Man O War, Moon Deck, Jet Deck bred horses, all race bred & terrible to train, hot hot hot, nasty at times and thoroughbredy built, very lean, best horses I ever had once you get them trained if they did not kill you BUT I'm over 50 now and not into getting maimed . . . the Skippers are easier to train because they are ppl lovers, they are rounder & prettier built but still have the heart & conformation to get out & boogy . . . there are Quarters & Paints out there bred for western pleasure, english & other disciplines that are not going to fit with my breeding program because of conformation, temperament etc . . .

My Skipper W bred mare has taken grand champion in halter here in Minnesota but if I was to place in the WORLD show, I would probably have to have an Impressive bred horse, fed, medded & trimmed to be competitive in halter class, bred to look like a BEEF cow, so fat & heavily muscled that they can't trot without tripping over themselves much less run! And very possibly foundered & dead by age 5.

so I guess what I'm saying is that even in the bullies, AB, OV, OEB, EB, etc . . . is difference in a breed a bad thing????? The AB has many different uses. Do most bully ppl go by bloodlines like I do with my horses? You hear ppl mention "Scott type" or "Gargoyle" bloodlines etc . . . You go with the bloodlines/breeder that suit your discipline be it protection sports, hunting, showing or pet . . . .

 

[mstngchic2012]

Jo - I'm not all that up on my bloodlines as far as horses go but I do know a few. And sadly all the halter horses I've been seeing in the major show rings are the BEEFY horses with short legs and hooves the size of a tea cup saucer. I'm personally into foundation type QH's because the ones I have experience with have the turn & burn with the brains. At my job we have all different types of QH's and TB's and my favorites are the fairly lazy horses that know their job and will do it when asked. We have horses that won't work or are hot tempered and those are the horses I hate teaching people to ride on because I'm teaching beginners.

Anyways, to tie this into back into dogs it's all about personal preference anymore. We have those like Alison, Mike, and Lisa who are all about the working dog. Then we have those of us who just want pets. And there are those who are into conformation showing. There tends to be a huge difference in all these types within one breed. Again it's about preference. I would prefer a pet that has a solid temperament and that I can get into the working world.

 

[forever_pit]

It's faking a pedigree.

Can't good working dogs be produced without outcrossing? Is outcrossing just a shortcut to a better dog? ( when done correctly )

I'm just trying to learn people's opinions and thoughts on the matter. Just a newb trying to figure things out. I don't claim to be knowledgeable at all on the subject. Hell this is my first bulldog!!

I wouldn't define an outcross as a "shortcut". People outcross because it makes sense in the breeding program, at least with good knowledgeable breeders. Outcrosses are necessary, particularly if you are working with a small or very tight gene pool.

ETA: But yes, good working dogs can be produced without an outcross. Gigz and Raven are both "pure" AB. IMHO, Gigz is a really nice working dog and Raven certainly has a lot of potential. That said, the two litters I am currently looking at are 1) purebred ABs with known APBT blood in the pedigree, and 2) an APBT x AB cross.

Let me ask you John, where do you think the purebred AB came from? At what point did it actually become purebred? What does that say about the other breeds that were used in its foundation? Why can't you outcross back to those breeds? If you do, does that make the puppies any less pure or not?