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What is a "true bulldog" to you John? Is it about conformation? Temperament?

IMO, the bulldog is a utilitarian dog that should do a wide variety of tasks when asked - the most important of which, to me, is protection and hunting.

Historically, these dogs have been tied with other bulldog breeds so why does it matter if that relationship continues? Why does it matter if one AB looks more bully and another looks more Pit Bull-ish or Houndy? Are you aware of how different working Labradors look from one another? Why is that? Because they are not being bred for appearance, they are being bred for work.

Tina, I think it is quite an assumption to say that ABs that are outcrossed with other dogs are going to be "garbage dogs". Are y'all aware that some of the MOST SUCCESSFUL working dog kennels and bloodlines in the world hang papers regularly? Why? Because of the conformation registrations, it is common knowledge that these folks would breed any working dog to another working dog to improve their lines. I'm not just talking bulldogs either.
 

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This kind of proves my point.
Where is the AB going to end up? Will it be a Bully dog who can do the work? Will it be a Pit mix that does the work? Will it be a Bully freak who can't work? Does conformation really have a place in the Bulldog world?
Everybody has their opinion on what the Bulldog should be, does that negatively effect the breed as a whole? Or will all the diversity eventually come together and produce a better specimen?

And I don't condone hanging papers. It's a con, pure and simple.
On the other hand, I'm not exactly opposed to an outcross either. At this point it looks like a necessity.
Is it? I don't agree with that, not always. Not when the breeder is honest with the buyer and the only reason papers are hung is because of registration requirements. Because that dog cannot compete in a sport unless it is registered with X kennel club.

Do all the dogs need to look the same? Why does it matter if they don't? Every breed has bloodlines that work better than others or that look slightly different, why is it such a big deal in bulldogs?

I guess I just don't care about what anyone else does with bulldogs outside of my yard and the dogs I am into. I know what blood works for me and I know the breeders of those dogs are on the same page as I am as far as what they are looking for. That's all I need. It has zero effect on me if others are breeding for bully freaks who can't breathe sitting outside. So I don't worry about it - I don't worry about that which I cannot control.
 

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But if it's about improving the working dog (not just bulldogs) then why is it important for breeders to hang papers for conformation registries? Form follows function, correct?

In many sports, and countries a dog must be appropriately registered in order to compete. The Dutch Shepherd is a good example of this. In order to compete in KNPV, they have to be FCI registered. What does FCI have to do with KNPV? Well, nothing except for that little piece of paper. So breeders who are working with bloodlines that have had say a shot of Pit Bull or Great Dane or any other dog that would work, hang the papers to get the dog FCI registered. Dog goes on to train and compete in KNPV and many of those dogs go on to be police or military working dogs.

True FCI does, look different and act different.
 

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The health of the AB is about health testing and being honest with yourself about your stock. It doesn't matter if the dog is bully or standard, you can produce healthy dogs.

John, no offense, but it is clear how little you understand about how registries and the working world actually function. If I'm breeding great dogs what do I care if it puts somebody else at a "disadvantage"? They should probably get their shit together and breed some great dogs instead of mediocre dogs that can run in left hand circles.

The NKC does allow outcrossing, but you cannot register the dogs as purebred AB until they are 7/8 pure. That can be reached in three generations. There are pure ABs now that are down off of Pit Bulls.
 

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Anyway, where do you think the breed will end up in 50years? Do you have an opinion on it or are the lines your working in your only concern?
I think there will be variety like there is now. You're not gonna get diehard bully or performance people to suddenly switch sides. But perhaps things will look up, there are some bully kennels starting to test their dogs in protection. If people could look past conformation and their egos (because everyone in bulldogs wants to be THE ONE to fix the breed) then things will be fine.

Personally, I am only concerned with the working dogs. I will continue to have dogs come and go off my yard as I test them and they fail out. Dogs that stay are staying for a reason. That's all I really care about.
 

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It's faking a pedigree.

Can't good working dogs be produced without outcrossing? Is outcrossing just a shortcut to a better dog? ( when done correctly )


I'm just trying to learn people's opinions and thoughts on the matter. Just a newb trying to figure things out. I don't claim to be knowledgeable at all on the subject. Hell this is my first bulldog!!
I wouldn't define an outcross as a "shortcut". People outcross because it makes sense in the breeding program, at least with good knowledgeable breeders. Outcrosses are necessary, particularly if you are working with a small or very tight gene pool.

ETA: But yes, good working dogs can be produced without an outcross. Gigz and Raven are both "pure" AB. IMHO, Gigz is a really nice working dog and Raven certainly has a lot of potential. That said, the two litters I am currently looking at are 1) purebred ABs with known APBT blood in the pedigree, and 2) an APBT x AB cross.

Let me ask you John, where do you think the purebred AB came from? At what point did it actually become purebred? What does that say about the other breeds that were used in its foundation? Why can't you outcross back to those breeds? If you do, does that make the puppies any less pure or not?
 

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I don't feel attacked, sorry if it's coming off that way. I'm actually enjoying this discussion.

IMHO a great working APBT can only add to any breeding program, whether it be that of the AB, the Malinois, or the Dutch Shepherd. All three breeds do have APBT influence.

If it were possible I would bring you out to my training group. You like Gigz? Wait until you see some of the APBTs we have out there.
 

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I think you would be hard pressed to find ABs of the same quality as the APBT. This goes for drive, seriousness in the work, stamina and endurance, as well as health and genetic knowledge.

I honestly think ABs need the help. The vast majority of them are mediocre at best. At best. And you cannot create something from nothing.

My question for you is this, if it BETTERS THE BREED...what is the problem?

ETA: Additionally, if the Malinois and Dutchie are being infused with APBT in order to improve those breeds (and those breeds produce more consistently high quality working dogs - at least in the kennels producing such dogs) and in those breeds it should and is easier to match dogs together for better overall puppies, then what makes you think the AB has the level of necessary traits in order to sustain itself?

If you talk to those who have been in the breed for 20+ years the general consensus is that the AB is a mere fraction of the dog that it once was. I would give anything to have a classic dog from way back when.
 

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Just because a dog has traits doesn't mean they can be pulled to the front. A great dog that is scatterbred doesn't have the same genetic strength as a great dog that is linebred or inbred. You can have a really nice dog that doesn't have anywhere to pull the genes from in his/her offspring that never reproduces dog anywhere close to what they are.

The fact is that if you want to produce dogs that are say a 7 on a scale of 1-10, then you need to breed dogs that are 11s. You can't make 7s out of 4-5s.

Honestly, I don't care if you want to term the APBT as the "easy way out" or if you want to see it that way. You will never make a purebred AB out of what is available (especially when so many breeders are unwilling to work with others) that will be better than an APBT.

What it comes down to is what different people value most. You are more hung up on the idea of being "pure" than I am and I am more into the working value of a dog than you are. Our two minds will not meet on this particular debate. But you may want one of my dogs 15 years down the line. ;)

ETA: For the record, the AB outcrosses I know and the people I know that breed them DO NOT paper them as ABs until they meet the 7/8 rule. There are not secrets about what is in the blood, they are actually damn proud of it.
 

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I think I need to do some studying on the DNA of dogs lol.
I'm hung up on using the AB to make a better AB I guess. I think it's a lofty goal according to what you've told me, and from what you said about breeders not wanting to work together. I see that on other boards all the time. Many of them despise eachother!

I like a working dog no matter what it's made of, but I'd love to see a "pure" AB doing the work as well any other breed. I mean, if these dogs supposedly came down from working dogs, wtf happened? Why have the genes been suppressed?
I don't think it is about genes being suppressed. I think it goes back to poor breeding decisions. People more interested in conformation over working ability. People too concerned with not reproducing animal aggression because it is not easily managed in pet homes. People too concerned about being the one to save the breed. Yadda yadda yadda.
 

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Al, can "good" genes become diluted? Sorry if its a stupid question. Like for example, if you think you have found the perfect 2 dogs and you keep breeding from the that gene pool only, will the good pup production ever dwindle?
If you only breed from two dogs you will breed yourself into a corner, plain and simple. You do need variety and that's where the outcross comes in. But if you only breed two dogs, then your next generation ends up being either mother x son, father x daughter, or full brother x full sister. You can't do that forever and expect things not to happen. If nothing else you will lose size.
 

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But would you paper it as either one in order to compete? If for some reason it turned out to be a great bird dog? Sure it might turn out to be better than either breed. Then what? You created a really good working mutt. Nothing wrong with that unless you claim it to be one of the two breeds IMO.

And yes I really am enjoying this discussion. Thanks again for the input!
And should great dogs not be allowed to compete because they have a shot of some other blood? Even when the outcross is common knowledge that the breeders and buyers admit to readily? Even when those dogs end up being the basis for a huge percentage of this country's police, military, border patrol, and customs dogs?

It's not a secret. We all know. It is openly talked about. No one cares because they WORK.
 

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I feel you John. I used to be all about purebred ABs too.

I agree that paper hanging without telling the buyer the truth is false advertisement. I guess I don't mind it when it is for a purpose, like the example I used with Dutchies being able to compete in KNPV and needing to be FCI registered.

Do I think the AB community should outcross to the APBT? Yes. An EB? Not so much. lol
 

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LOL @ big money in dogs!

From what I have seen, the only way to make big money in dogs is to become a private contracting business that imports and breeds dogs for government consumption and provides training for those dogs' handlers. Breeding and competing will never line your wallet unless you breed way to freaking much and don't care what you are putting into the market and in who's hands you are putting it.
 

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John, I don't care much about "type" except for how it affects working ability. But even that can differ based on activity. For example, I have seen some short muzzled and somewhat overdone bully dogs be quite good at weight pull. I don't think they would have the same results in protection work because I think stamina and endurance would be an issue.

Honestly, I don't think that it will ever be narrowed down to one "type" of AB. If it is that is an action by the kennel clubs and probably not motivated by the people working and breeding working quality ABs. Even if a single "type" is defined, I think there will be plenty of people who don't care and continue to work with what they are working with.
 

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Meh...I don't buy into the Old Southern White fairytale. It's an AB too. I certainly don't think that those that say they sell OSW as opposed to ABs are producing much different than anyone else breeding ABs for hunting.

ABs were used for hunting, yes. But they were also used for a variety of other tasks. They were essentially a catch-all utilitarian dog.

The breeders you mentioned are certainly not the only ones producing sound hunting dogs. As for the protection work, a few people have the same mentality as you do about it ruining the breed. I completely disagree. It is just one more way to test the dog. I have yet to have any problems getting my dogs to bark, drive and frustration typically produce that response. The same way that dogs that are taken to the hog pen for the first time will scream and bark while being held back. It's drive.

Protection work and teaching a dog to bite a decoy and all of the control work that comes with it has ZERO to do with a dog biting its handler or being more likely to do so - actually the reverse is most likely true as these dogs have more obedience and control work than the vast majority of dogs. A good sport dog is stable and balanced and should be able to discern the difference between a threat and the rest of life. I know my dogs are stable enough to bite and man and then be off leash around a crowd of people or go into crowded stores or fairs and never have a problem.

I don't disagree that there are many ABs that are not well suited to protection work, for a myriad of reasons. But there are some very good dogs. But protection work is not the cause of "dominance issues" that is a straight up training issue that the owner needs to take the initiative and responsibility for and get it worked out. Hell, I know labs and 15 pound kick dogs that have "dominance issues". :lol: Dog aggression, imho, is a non issue. It's a management thing and it is really not a big deal. You can have dog aggressive dogs that still stick a hog with bay dogs around because the drive for the pig is greater than the desire to fight with another dog.

I also think that those working ABs in protection are looking for a very different structure than the one you describe. A hugely oversized dog with poor endurance and breathing is not the best fit for this field. IMO, that dog is more a result of the show ring and people wanting what looks tough over what is tough.

Good luck with your Old Southern White.
 

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Many people glorify the OSW. I have yet to see the proof in the pudding.

Can an OSW catch hogs any better than any other AB program focused on hunting? What about those programs that hunt their dogs as well as perform other tasks such as weight pull or protection? What does it say that ABs that are not labeled as OSWs are proving themselves as hunting dogs?

To me it seems to be not much more than a marketing scheme. A way to make that blood seem different than what others have. Which isn't the case, my first AB went back to the same stuff as the White Knight stuff does.

Could you argue it is a "type" of AB? Yeah, I'll give you that. But it's just an AB program focused primarily on hog hunting.

Additionally, there were many names for the AB/OSW when the breed first started coming about. I think a lot of that is due to regional differences. The same way you can have the same breed/type of dog with different names in different regions or countries in the Middle East or in Europe. That has diminished as travel and the ability to ship dogs and watch/hear about dogs all over the world has become significantly easier. The fact that the regional differences/names primarily exist in third world countries now demonstrates that correlation.

ETA: Tigerflag, it is evident from your initial post that what you and I consider the true form of a bulldog is different. And I'm speaking in terms other than that of bloodlines or what the dogs were/are called. I'm talking about temperament and working ability and what is appropriate work for the breed. So your ultimate classic bulldog will be different from mine. I've heard of enough old time bulldogs that had the attitude and ability to do bite work to know I'm not chasing a ghost.
 

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Oh now comes the romanticized origins. It's about time people get a grip on reality. The AB came about much as the OEB did. Just a bunch of breeding what ever to what ever to get a result. David Leavitt used the same EB as Johnson. There are no regional pockets that have some bulldogs that can trace their lineage back to the mayflower. Bulldog historically was a job description not a breed description. Any dog that did the work ascribed to the bulldog was a bulldog it's really that simply. To those that think that bulldogs weren't used on men in the past are mistaken.
That was not my point about regions, just to be clear. It was more a comment on language and the same thing being called different things in different regions. You can see it in the Middle East today. There are several names for the Kangal that vary by region. Same dog, same job though.

Every thing else though, yes.
Geez, I wish I had your brevity sometimes. lol
 
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