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AB people, get in here!

5605 Views 126 Replies 22 Participants Last post by  gazar
What do you think about the directions AB's are going? The AB looks like it's being pulled in every direction possible. Rumors of outcrossing and hanging papers. Some breeders seem to be going the direction the EB went and others look like they're breeding Pit Bulls.
What will it all mean in 50 years?
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I don't even know what an AB is supposed to be anymore!
I know what you mean about the other bulldogs too. I'm just a little more knowledgeable about current AB breeding practices than I am with OEB, EB, OVB, HIJKLMNOP.
Will the true Bulldog please stand up??
What is a "true bulldog" to you John? Is it about conformation? Temperament?

IMO, the bulldog is a utilitarian dog that should do a wide variety of tasks when asked - the most important of which, to me, is protection and hunting.

Historically, these dogs have been tied with other bulldog breeds so why does it matter if that relationship continues? Why does it matter if one AB looks more bully and another looks more Pit Bull-ish or Houndy? Are you aware of how different working Labradors look from one another? Why is that? Because they are not being bred for appearance, they are being bred for work.

Tina, I think it is quite an assumption to say that ABs that are outcrossed with other dogs are going to be "garbage dogs". Are y'all aware that some of the MOST SUCCESSFUL working dog kennels and bloodlines in the world hang papers regularly? Why? Because of the conformation registrations, it is common knowledge that these folks would breed any working dog to another working dog to improve their lines. I'm not just talking bulldogs either.
This kind of proves my point.
Where is the AB going to end up? Will it be a Bully dog who can do the work? Will it be a Pit mix that does the work? Will it be a Bully freak who can't work? Does conformation really have a place in the Bulldog world?
Everybody has their opinion on what the Bulldog should be, does that negatively effect the breed as a whole? Or will all the diversity eventually come together and produce a better specimen?

And I don't condone hanging papers. It's a con, pure and simple.
On the other hand, I'm not exactly opposed to an outcross either. At this point it looks like a necessity.
may be better suited for the debate/discussion section rather than the health section...
You're probably right about that. I saw it as a discussion about the eventual health of the AB but the topic is much more broad than health.

Hanging papers isn't right IMO. It's dishonest to somebody. Be it the registry or the buyer, I see no difference really. That would open another debate. Should said registry allow outcrosses? Doesn't hanging papers to produce a better working dog.... put those who actually follow the rules at a disadvantage?
I'm not claiming to know much about the working world or the registries they're working under. I was aware of the 7/8 rule.

Maybe I should take steroids to be a better athlete. Who cares if others don't. They'd better get their act together if they want to compete...
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on it, which isn't a big deal. It will create a better working bulldog in the long run right?

Anyway, where do you think the breed will end up in 50years? Do you have an opinion on it or are the lines your working in your only concern?
I'm posting from my phone so things are a little goofy.
I don't want you thinking I took offense or anything. After reading my post I think it could be misconstrued as having a "tone" to it.
And whats hanging papers mean?
It's faking a pedigree.

Can't good working dogs be produced without outcrossing? Is outcrossing just a shortcut to a better dog? ( when done correctly )

I'm just trying to learn people's opinions and thoughts on the matter. Just a newb trying to figure things out. I don't claim to be knowledgeable at all on the subject. Hell this is my first bulldog!!
I wasn't really questioning the origins of the AB. It's all a mash up/guessing game when you get down to it. I don't buy into the romanticized , untouched old English bulldog theory. Bubba has both EB and Pit in his ped and is still "purebred" by definition.

The AB started with a fairly small gene pool. I'm not against outcrossing for the right reasons but don't paper the dog as being something it isn't. Would you fudge papers on a high school football player so he could compete in pee-wee football? (Not the best analogy I know.)

What beneficial traits do, say, an APBT have...that no AB does? And if those traits can be found in the AB, why need an outcross? Wouldn't selective breeding produce the same product?

I'm not attacking anybodies idea or dog or program. I'm trying to form an educated opinion and whether you know it or not, it's helping me.
Thanks for the responses so far
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IMHO a great working APBT can only add to any breeding program
I don't doubt this for a minute. BUT if the traits can be found within the breed, why outcross? If it's only to shave time and errors off of the breeding program, I would consider it a shortcut.
PS- Yes Gigz is awesome lol
So the traits are out there in the AB, but tough to find. So breed in some more Pit to make it easier. Which also widens the gene pool and in effect, betters the breed in two ways. It just seems like the easy way out to me, but I'm not a breeder.

I take the term "bettering the breed" to mean selectively breeding for certain traits WITHIN the breed. There's already outcrosses so the genes are there. They just need to be found and brought to the front.

I wouldn't take a GSP to a Weimaraner and paper it as either one for a field trial. It is what it is, a GSP X Weim.
I think I need to do some studying on the DNA of dogs lol.
I'm hung up on using the AB to make a better AB I guess. I think it's a lofty goal according to what you've told me, and from what you said about breeders not wanting to work together. I see that on other boards all the time. Many of them despise eachother!

I like a working dog no matter what it's made of, but I'd love to see a "pure" AB doing the work as well any other breed. I mean, if these dogs supposedly came down from working dogs, wtf happened? Why have the genes been suppressed?
i would buy a GSP/weim mix if it was what I was looking for in a working dog, why the hell not? if the cross and pedigree brought something to the table that was an advantage then there is nothing wrong with that.
But would you paper it as either one in order to compete? If for some reason it turned out to be a great bird dog? Sure it might turn out to be better than either breed. Then what? You created a really good working mutt. Nothing wrong with that unless you claim it to be one of the two breeds IMO.

And yes I really am enjoying this discussion. Thanks again for the input!
And should great dogs not be allowed to compete because they have a shot of some other blood?
Not at all. That would be a problem with the organization your working with and not a problem with the dog. If people want to compete in an anything goes registry, make an anything goes registry or competition. I don't know if something like that exists for working dogs, but if not...it damn sure should!

Paper hanging isn't just done by people who work their dogs. To somebody like myself, just getting into a breed, you wouldn't know any better. It's false advertisement really.

Like I've said, or tried to say, I don't have a problem with crosses/mutts whatever you might call them. I just question whether or not it's NEEDED. Know what I'm saying?

I started this thread hoping you (FP) and the few others here, could shed some light for me. So far so good!
Perhaps an interesting link for some, be warned it is looong.

post all ur apbt x ab crosses !

AB working board discusses the AB x APBT cross.
Thanks for the link to that thread!
Most equate the "purebred" to quality and it just isn't so.

I liked the article. Thanks!

At what point will the AB be bred cautiously enough to not require an outcross? Or does the AB NEED new blood to survive?

I know that a mutt/mix can be designed for certain jobs (or looks, unfortunately) and excel. I'm not really trying to debate that. It's where all of our dogs come from at some point. I don't have anything against a "purebred" dog either, if it does what it's designed to do and live a relatively healthy life.

At some point these "mutts" became a new breed by locking in certain traits. There's always some sort of variation but they remain true to a type.
At this point, you could put 5 different AB's side by side and have a handful of dogs that LOOSELY resemble each other. Looking like a mash-up of Pits, EBs and Mastiffs, with varying degrees of genes from each.

Do you think the AB will end up as 2, 3, 4, ? "types"? Like, if you could narrow it down, keep it the same or add more "types" which would you choose and why? OR should appearance not matter much for the AB as long as it's healthy and it works? (I guess this is geared directly toward the AB crowd but could apply to others)

BTW, I'm not advocating breeding for "type" based strictly on looks.
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John, I don't care much about "type" except for how it affects working ability.
Even if a single "type" is defined, I think there will be plenty of people who don't care and continue to work with what they are working with.
I can dig it.
I don't agree with the statement that the OSW is a breeding program strictly for hunting, or that it's just marketing hype, but I'm fine with the fact that others might see it that way.
You gave your thoughts on the matter at hand, and were offended when somebody finds the idea ridiculous. Sadly, your response has been the least adult out of the 7 pages this has gone.

Turns out, this isn't a forum for adult discussion, it's an elementary school clique.
This being a forum for discussion, is going to have opinions other than your own. If you can't accept that without feeling offended, judged, etc. than maybe you should do a little growing up of your own.

I've enjoyed this thread and the opinions of others. It's been civil aside from this recent outburst and I hope it continues in a civil manner. I can't thank you guys enough for the responses. My wheels are turning and it's urged me to look into the matter with a different perspective.
I find it humorous that the most outspoken against outcrossing in the thread don't have breeding programs or actively working/testing their dogs according to their ideal type/breed to the best of my knowledge. Seems like they want to arm chair quarterback those that do.

Maybe I should re-read the thread? lol
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