[JohnJ]

I wasn't really questioning the origins of the AB. It's all a mash up/guessing game when you get down to it. I don't buy into the romanticized , untouched old English bulldog theory. Bubba has both EB and Pit in his ped and is still "purebred" by definition.

The AB started with a fairly small gene pool. I'm not against outcrossing for the right reasons but don't paper the dog as being something it isn't. Would you fudge papers on a high school football player so he could compete in pee-wee football? (Not the best analogy I know.)

What beneficial traits do, say, an APBT have...that no AB does? And if those traits can be found in the AB, why need an outcross? Wouldn't selective breeding produce the same product?

I'm not attacking anybodies idea or dog or program. I'm trying to form an educated opinion and whether you know it or not, it's helping me.
Thanks for the responses so far

 

[forever_pit]

I don't feel attacked, sorry if it's coming off that way. I'm actually enjoying this discussion.

IMHO a great working APBT can only add to any breeding program, whether it be that of the AB, the Malinois, or the Dutch Shepherd. All three breeds do have APBT influence.

If it were possible I would bring you out to my training group. You like Gigz? Wait until you see some of the APBTs we have out there.

 

[JohnJ]

IMHO a great working APBT can only add to any breeding program

I don't doubt this for a minute. BUT if the traits can be found within the breed, why outcross? If it's only to shave time and errors off of the breeding program, I would consider it a shortcut.

 

[forever_pit]

I think you would be hard pressed to find ABs of the same quality as the APBT. This goes for drive, seriousness in the work, stamina and endurance, as well as health and genetic knowledge.

I honestly think ABs need the help. The vast majority of them are mediocre at best. At best. And you cannot create something from nothing.

My question for you is this, if it BETTERS THE BREED...what is the problem?

ETA: Additionally, if the Malinois and Dutchie are being infused with APBT in order to improve those breeds (and those breeds produce more consistently high quality working dogs - at least in the kennels producing such dogs) and in those breeds it should and is easier to match dogs together for better overall puppies, then what makes you think the AB has the level of necessary traits in order to sustain itself?

If you talk to those who have been in the breed for 20+ years the general consensus is that the AB is a mere fraction of the dog that it once was. I would give anything to have a classic dog from way back when.

 

[JohnJ]

PS- Yes Gigz is awesome lol

 

[JohnJ]

So the traits are out there in the AB, but tough to find. So breed in some more Pit to make it easier. Which also widens the gene pool and in effect, betters the breed in two ways. It just seems like the easy way out to me, but I'm not a breeder.

I take the term "bettering the breed" to mean selectively breeding for certain traits WITHIN the breed. There's already outcrosses so the genes are there. They just need to be found and brought to the front.

I wouldn't take a GSP to a Weimaraner and paper it as either one for a field trial. It is what it is, a GSP X Weim.

 

[forever_pit]

Just because a dog has traits doesn't mean they can be pulled to the front. A great dog that is scatterbred doesn't have the same genetic strength as a great dog that is linebred or inbred. You can have a really nice dog that doesn't have anywhere to pull the genes from in his/her offspring that never reproduces dog anywhere close to what they are.

The fact is that if you want to produce dogs that are say a 7 on a scale of 1-10, then you need to breed dogs that are 11s. You can't make 7s out of 4-5s.

Honestly, I don't care if you want to term the APBT as the "easy way out" or if you want to see it that way. You will never make a purebred AB out of what is available (especially when so many breeders are unwilling to work with others) that will be better than an APBT.

What it comes down to is what different people value most. You are more hung up on the idea of being "pure" than I am and I am more into the working value of a dog than you are. Our two minds will not meet on this particular debate. But you may want one of my dogs 15 years down the line.

ETA: For the record, the AB outcrosses I know and the people I know that breed them DO NOT paper them as ABs until they meet the 7/8 rule. There are not secrets about what is in the blood, they are actually damn proud of it.

 

[luckysarah]

You can't find something if its not there.

Can you breed the pug into a protection dog by only using AKC or CKC pugs? probably not. Can you breed the pug back to it was in the 1600's by only using papered dogs.

Not comparing the pug to the AB but you can't get blood from a turnip and you can't selectively breed something into a breed that isn't already there, and even if you could think of all the puppies that would be produced trying to slowly raise a temperament trait in a breed instead of just doing an outcross to obtain the same characteristics.

I have no issue with outcrossing as long as you are doing it to improve or maintain health/temperament/structure.

i would buy a GSP/weim mix if it was what I was looking for in a working dog, why the hell not? if the cross and pedigree brought something to the table that was an advantage then there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Steph]

This is really a fabulous discussion. And APBT's are awesome I'd choose a AB outcrossed with an APBT before I'd choose one that wasn't. Because like Al said, I think a well bred pit can only better a program.

 

[JohnJ]

I think I need to do some studying on the DNA of dogs lol.
I'm hung up on using the AB to make a better AB I guess. I think it's a lofty goal according to what you've told me, and from what you said about breeders not wanting to work together. I see that on other boards all the time. Many of them despise eachother!

I like a working dog no matter what it's made of, but I'd love to see a "pure" AB doing the work as well any other breed. I mean, if these dogs supposedly came down from working dogs, wtf happened? Why have the genes been suppressed?

 

[Steph]

Al, can "good" genes become diluted? Sorry if its a stupid question. Like for example, if you think you have found the perfect 2 dogs and you keep breeding from the that gene pool only, will the good pup production ever dwindle?

 

[JohnJ]

i would buy a GSP/weim mix if it was what I was looking for in a working dog, why the hell not? if the cross and pedigree brought something to the table that was an advantage then there is nothing wrong with that.

But would you paper it as either one in order to compete? If for some reason it turned out to be a great bird dog? Sure it might turn out to be better than either breed. Then what? You created a really good working mutt. Nothing wrong with that unless you claim it to be one of the two breeds IMO.

And yes I really am enjoying this discussion. Thanks again for the input!

 

[luckysarah]

But would you paper it as either one in order to compete? If for some reason it turned out to be a great bird dog? Sure it might turn out to be better than either breed. Then what? You created a really good working mutt. Nothing wrong with that unless you claim it to be one of the two breeds IMO.

And yes I really am enjoying this discussion. Thanks again for the input!

I don't nor will I ever work with papered dogs so I have always been out of the loop in that regard, and there is never a lack of competitions or trials for my dogs, even when I had working terriers.

you find a way around it without feeding the registries that suck money from the sport.

So I take my astounding working mutt and breed it to another astounding working mutt. This is generally how real working dogs are produced, i am not talking about sport dogs I am talking about hog hunting dogs, cattle dogs, flock guardians... dogs who generally really do work for their supper.

The term "pure" bred dog is only about 100 years old, when you consider how long the domestic dog has been around its really a small fraction of time. A thousand years ago nobody cared if the dog had a piece of paper, if the dog was a pure bred or not, if the dog did what it was supposed to do then great that is all that mattered.... and when it stopped mattering this is when a lot of the great working breeds went to shit.

 

[forever_pit]

I think I need to do some studying on the DNA of dogs lol.
I'm hung up on using the AB to make a better AB I guess. I think it's a lofty goal according to what you've told me, and from what you said about breeders not wanting to work together. I see that on other boards all the time. Many of them despise eachother!

I like a working dog no matter what it's made of, but I'd love to see a "pure" AB doing the work as well any other breed. I mean, if these dogs supposedly came down from working dogs, wtf happened? Why have the genes been suppressed?

I don't think it is about genes being suppressed. I think it goes back to poor breeding decisions. People more interested in conformation over working ability. People too concerned with not reproducing animal aggression because it is not easily managed in pet homes. People too concerned about being the one to save the breed. Yadda yadda yadda.

 

[forever_pit]

Al, can "good" genes become diluted? Sorry if its a stupid question. Like for example, if you think you have found the perfect 2 dogs and you keep breeding from the that gene pool only, will the good pup production ever dwindle?

If you only breed from two dogs you will breed yourself into a corner, plain and simple. You do need variety and that's where the outcross comes in. But if you only breed two dogs, then your next generation ends up being either mother x son, father x daughter, or full brother x full sister. You can't do that forever and expect things not to happen. If nothing else you will lose size.

 

[forever_pit]

But would you paper it as either one in order to compete? If for some reason it turned out to be a great bird dog? Sure it might turn out to be better than either breed. Then what? You created a really good working mutt. Nothing wrong with that unless you claim it to be one of the two breeds IMO.

And yes I really am enjoying this discussion. Thanks again for the input!

And should great dogs not be allowed to compete because they have a shot of some other blood? Even when the outcross is common knowledge that the breeders and buyers admit to readily? Even when those dogs end up being the basis for a huge percentage of this country's police, military, border patrol, and customs dogs?

It's not a secret. We all know. It is openly talked about. No one cares because they WORK.

 

[JohnJ]

And should great dogs not be allowed to compete because they have a shot of some other blood?

Not at all. That would be a problem with the organization your working with and not a problem with the dog. If people want to compete in an anything goes registry, make an anything goes registry or competition. I don't know if something like that exists for working dogs, but if not...it damn sure should!

Paper hanging isn't just done by people who work their dogs. To somebody like myself, just getting into a breed, you wouldn't know any better. It's false advertisement really.

Like I've said, or tried to say, I don't have a problem with crosses/mutts whatever you might call them. I just question whether or not it's NEEDED. Know what I'm saying?

I started this thread hoping you (FP) and the few others here, could shed some light for me. So far so good!

 

[forever_pit]

I feel you John. I used to be all about purebred ABs too.

I agree that paper hanging without telling the buyer the truth is false advertisement. I guess I don't mind it when it is for a purpose, like the example I used with Dutchies being able to compete in KNPV and needing to be FCI registered.

Do I think the AB community should outcross to the APBT? Yes. An EB? Not so much. lol

 

[Tina]

Tina, I think it is quite an assumption to say that ABs that are outcrossed with other dogs are going to be "garbage dogs". Are y'all aware that some of the MOST SUCCESSFUL working dog kennels and bloodlines in the world hang papers regularly? Why? Because of the conformation registrations, it is common knowledge that these folks would breed any working dog to another working dog to improve their lines. I'm not just talking bulldogs either.

Perhaps I wasn't clear with what I meant. I wasn't referring to outcrossing or any methodical form of breeding. You know, where there is productive purpose And positive gain. I'm referring to those who see it as a trend or for business. With all the out BSL issues I am noticing a lot more popularity in different ABs and mixes being called ABs. These are the garbage dogs. Someone looking to make a quick buck and realizing this market will provide that. Someone who mates their dog with another based on this popularity. I see it here. I know many ppl here, myself included have dogs that are a product of BYBs and puppy mills. Some of us get lucky but most don't.

 

[forever_pit]

Ok, I can agree with that distinction for sure.