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Jo - I'm not all that up on my bloodlines as far as horses go but I do know a few. And sadly all the halter horses I've been seeing in the major show rings are the BEEFY horses with short legs and hooves the size of a tea cup saucer. I'm personally into foundation type QH's because the ones I have experience with have the turn & burn with the brains. At my job we have all different types of QH's and TB's and my favorites are the fairly lazy horses that know their job and will do it when asked. We have horses that won't work or are hot tempered and those are the horses I hate teaching people to ride on because I'm teaching beginners. ***Our AQHA & APHA horses all go back to some thoroughbred and we prefer to ride mares so they are still a little hot/independent minded, I cannot put novice riders on them, but the way we like them :0) . . . knowing the Quarter and Paint horse registries, you know that they are like the AB or OEB, as they were a mix, a heinz 57, going all the way back to Arabians in the 1700s . . . and Thoroughbreds (under certain requirements) are still accepted to breed into the AQHA, thoroughbred and Quarter are accepted to breed into Paint . . . so I guess that would be considered an outcross???***

Anyways, to tie this into back into dogs it's all about personal preference anymore. We have those like Alison, Mike, and Lisa who are all about the working dog. Then we have those of us who just want pets. And there are those who are into conformation showing. There tends to be a huge difference in all these types within one breed. Again it's about preference. I would prefer a pet that has a solid temperament and that I can get into the working world.
***I guess I was not seeing that at first, thinking that a bully breed needs to be the same, but if I look at it like registered Quarter horses, covering different types/bloodlines, one breed covers so many different disciplines/uses . . . if we realize that, then we can expect to see difference in the breed as far as bloodlines/uses go and we can expect out-crosses to be used to better a certain type for a certain purpose/discipline . . . that there cannot be only one standard type of AB or OEB or APBT to cover all the purposes/disciplines these dogs are used for by people who have different ideals.***
 

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Papers on a dog are worth only the cost of the paper they're printed on. There is no registry that doesn't suffer paper hanging. Most equate the "purebred" to quality and it just isn't so.
THE PURITY OF PUREBRED DOGS, by David J. Arthur
 

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I have enjoyed reading this thread. I especailly appreciate members having a spirited exchange without things getting nasty. I grew up around treeing hounds and absolutely nobody cared if they were purebred or were registered. If they hunted hard and produced game(raccoons) then they were kept around and eventually bred to other good hounds. I am out of that hobby now, but I know that it is still being done today. I have had the pleasure of hunting behind a couple dozen good bird dogs. The abslutely best one that I was ever around was an ESP/Brittany Spaniel cross. Back then they were still called "spaneils' before the AKC and others changed their name. This dog flushed running pheasants and pointed tight holding birds. My long anticipated point is that these dogs worked for their owner. I have owned Boykin Spaniels for years. This breed continues to evolve even as of today. The introduction of new blood hs been necessary throughout the years to improve the health of the breed. If you ever get a chance to see a Boykin, take a look at thier eyes. i will give you one hint, think Chessy!
 

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I could care less about papers on my dogs . . . but I can see where papers could be important . . .

my horses are a business, you show in your disciplines, get them out get them seen, state Expos, breed shows etc . . . keep up with memberships, registrations, DNA, breeding reports . . . breed NICE outside mares for ppl who will show them, ship semen, breed your mares, sell the foals at 3-5 months old . . . I used to get $500 to $2000 a foal right off the mare, paid for the keep of our 30 plus breeding horses at the time and a few extras, always for the ranch, trailer, tractor etc . . . those very same foals without their papers would be worth about 10% of their value.
with this economy, they do not pay for themselves and we have cut way back.

The money was/is in registered horses, there is no money in grade/unregistered horses.
They have to be registered to show at breed shows and at World, horses shown & winning at that height will still bring top dollar . . . you can still get $100,000 for well bred cutting and reining horses, big money if you are winning with big money invested . . . Hollywood Dun It Won over $2,000,000 and 50% interest sold in him for $1,000,000 . . . imagine those private stud fees! His babies won big, very prolific stallion . . . so you are talking registered horses plus all the money you are paying into futurities to compete. The big AQHA championship race pays out over $1,000,000 . . .
big money racing/showing is only in registered breeds . . .

so is it like that with dogs too?????

endurance racing is one of the very few things I can think of, where the horses do not need to be registered or a certain breed, mules compete too . . .

 

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LOL @ big money in dogs!

From what I have seen, the only way to make big money in dogs is to become a private contracting business that imports and breeds dogs for government consumption and provides training for those dogs' handlers. Breeding and competing will never line your wallet unless you breed way to freaking much and don't care what you are putting into the market and in who's hands you are putting it.
 

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LOL @ big money in dogs!

From what I have seen, the only way to make big money in dogs is to become a private contracting business that imports and breeds dogs for government consumption and provides training for those dogs' handlers. Breeding and competing will never line your wallet unless you breed way to freaking much and don't care what you are putting into the market and in who's hands you are putting it.
Or feeding them ;)
 

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LOL @ big money in dogs!

From what I have seen, the only way to make big money in dogs is to become a private contracting business that imports and breeds dogs for government consumption and provides training for those dogs' handlers. Breeding and competing will never line your wallet unless you breed way to freaking much and don't care what you are putting into the market and in who's hands you are putting it.

Our adopted AB had a minimum of two litters before she was 3 . The two litters that I am aware of each had 11 surviiving pups. They all sold for $1000 bucks a pup. No health clearances were done to the best of my knowldedge. We dearly love our dog but she is showing some health related issues at the age of five. She has been spayed now ,but the damage has been done. Really irriitates me that she had to go through back to back litters and that all of those pups are now out there in the gene pool. Somebody made a ton of money but for all of the wrong reasons.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 · (Edited)
Most equate the "purebred" to quality and it just isn't so.
THE PURITY OF PUREBRED DOGS, by David J. Arthur

I liked the article. Thanks!

At what point will the AB be bred cautiously enough to not require an outcross? Or does the AB NEED new blood to survive?

I know that a mutt/mix can be designed for certain jobs (or looks, unfortunately) and excel. I'm not really trying to debate that. It's where all of our dogs come from at some point. I don't have anything against a "purebred" dog either, if it does what it's designed to do and live a relatively healthy life.

At some point these "mutts" became a new breed by locking in certain traits. There's always some sort of variation but they remain true to a type.
At this point, you could put 5 different AB's side by side and have a handful of dogs that LOOSELY resemble each other. Looking like a mash-up of Pits, EBs and Mastiffs, with varying degrees of genes from each.


Do you think the AB will end up as 2, 3, 4, ? "types"? Like, if you could narrow it down, keep it the same or add more "types" which would you choose and why? OR should appearance not matter much for the AB as long as it's healthy and it works? (I guess this is geared directly toward the AB crowd but could apply to others)


BTW, I'm not advocating breeding for "type" based strictly on looks.
 

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not necessarily the money that the big horse races bring . . .
not much money in your typical registered horse right now either . . .

I mean the ppl who show registered dogs, I would imagine you are showing and breeding, promoting your bloodlines and in order to breed, raise, show, you would need papered dogs . . .

you hear so many bad things about defects in litters . . . I would hope there are some responsible, knowledgeable breeders out there raising good quality pups?????
 

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Showing is way different than working. An English bulldog is a show dog but can't do shi* for work. That's why I don't think papers are important.
 

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John, I don't care much about "type" except for how it affects working ability. But even that can differ based on activity. For example, I have seen some short muzzled and somewhat overdone bully dogs be quite good at weight pull. I don't think they would have the same results in protection work because I think stamina and endurance would be an issue.

Honestly, I don't think that it will ever be narrowed down to one "type" of AB. If it is that is an action by the kennel clubs and probably not motivated by the people working and breeding working quality ABs. Even if a single "type" is defined, I think there will be plenty of people who don't care and continue to work with what they are working with.
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
John, I don't care much about "type" except for how it affects working ability.
Even if a single "type" is defined, I think there will be plenty of people who don't care and continue to work with what they are working with.
I can dig it.
 

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At what point will the AB be bred cautiously enough to not require an outcross? Or does the AB NEED new blood to survive?
John - I honestly believe that every breed/line needs new blood at some point or another. This also applies to other species. I'm sure Jo and I could talk about horses and the need to outcross because of issues in certain breeds/bloodlines.

not necessarily the money that the big horse races bring . . .
not much money in your typical registered horse right now either . . .

I mean the ppl who show registered dogs, I would imagine you are showing and breeding, promoting your bloodlines and in order to breed, raise, show, you would need papered dogs . . .

you hear so many bad things about defects in litters . . . I would hope there are some responsible, knowledgeable breeders out there raising good quality pups?????
There are some great breeders out there raising good quality pups BUT most who are being responsible aren't necessarily making money and aren't looking to really make a living off of them. There are other breeders out there who aren't really working with registered dogs because they are actually working their animals (hunting, protection, etc.). I know a lot of **** hunters who have unregistered hounds that could beat out some of the best registered hounds but can't because they have outcrossed to other breeds to produce better pups.
 

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If you talk to those who have been in the breed for 20+ years the general consensus is that the AB is a mere fraction of the dog that it once was. I would give anything to have a classic dog from way back when.
I won't pretend to have the knowledge of people who have worked with the breed for many years, but I did do a lot of research before buying my AB two years ago. The more I studied the breed, the more I found myself attracted to the original Standard type. And when I studied the Standard type, I learned that the Old Southern White bulldog, sometimes called the White English, was the foundation for that strain.

I found only a few kennels still breeding the Old Southern White lines:

Laura Kennels and Joshua Kennels share each other's dogs in their breeding programs. Both these breeders are serious about health, temperament and working ability. Another fellow who has a lot of knowledge to share about the Old Southern Whites is Ralph Citarella at White Knight.

People sometimes don't understand what a dog breed was intended for. They decide they like the look of a dog, so get it and then try to make it do a task. Often, the dog wasn't bred for that task. So breeders start to change the dogs to suit consumer demand. That is what's been happening to the AB, and it's ruining the breed.

Old Southern White bulldogs were used over many generations to hunt wild pigs and boar, catch and hold livestock, and drive cattle. A dog hot on the scent of a wild boar isn't supposed to bark because that will tip off the boar. They were bred to be quiet dogs. But people wanting to use ABs for protection work will often complain that they can't get their dog to bark!

Working bulldogs sometimes get gored by a wild hog and need to be stitched up out in the field- without anesthesia. If you're a hunter and come across a dog that needs your help, you don't want that dog to bite you when you start to work on it. You need that dog to be able to restrain its natural instinct to bite when it's in pain. So bulldogs that remained calm and didn't bite while under stress were considered good dogs and got bred. Bulldogs that "lost their cool" and bit people were not bred.

Cut to today, when more and more people want ABs for protection and bite work because the AB looks like an imposing dog. Trying to make bulldogs bark and do bite work is the opposite of what they were originally bred for. I'm not saying it can't be done and done well, but a lot of these dogs just don't have the temperament for that kind of work. So breeders are changing the dog to suit the public's demand, and messing it up considerably, IMHO.

As a result, we're seeing more and more American Bulldogs that are dog-aggressive and have dominance problems in the home. They're often hugely oversized and muscular, to the detriment of their structure, breathing and endurance.

If you want a classic AB in all of its original glory, the Old Southern Whites are still around. You just have to look a little harder to find them. Mine is sleeping on my feet...
 

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Meh...I don't buy into the Old Southern White fairytale. It's an AB too. I certainly don't think that those that say they sell OSW as opposed to ABs are producing much different than anyone else breeding ABs for hunting.

ABs were used for hunting, yes. But they were also used for a variety of other tasks. They were essentially a catch-all utilitarian dog.

The breeders you mentioned are certainly not the only ones producing sound hunting dogs. As for the protection work, a few people have the same mentality as you do about it ruining the breed. I completely disagree. It is just one more way to test the dog. I have yet to have any problems getting my dogs to bark, drive and frustration typically produce that response. The same way that dogs that are taken to the hog pen for the first time will scream and bark while being held back. It's drive.

Protection work and teaching a dog to bite a decoy and all of the control work that comes with it has ZERO to do with a dog biting its handler or being more likely to do so - actually the reverse is most likely true as these dogs have more obedience and control work than the vast majority of dogs. A good sport dog is stable and balanced and should be able to discern the difference between a threat and the rest of life. I know my dogs are stable enough to bite and man and then be off leash around a crowd of people or go into crowded stores or fairs and never have a problem.

I don't disagree that there are many ABs that are not well suited to protection work, for a myriad of reasons. But there are some very good dogs. But protection work is not the cause of "dominance issues" that is a straight up training issue that the owner needs to take the initiative and responsibility for and get it worked out. Hell, I know labs and 15 pound kick dogs that have "dominance issues". :lol: Dog aggression, imho, is a non issue. It's a management thing and it is really not a big deal. You can have dog aggressive dogs that still stick a hog with bay dogs around because the drive for the pig is greater than the desire to fight with another dog.

I also think that those working ABs in protection are looking for a very different structure than the one you describe. A hugely oversized dog with poor endurance and breathing is not the best fit for this field. IMO, that dog is more a result of the show ring and people wanting what looks tough over what is tough.

Good luck with your Old Southern White.
 

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Not sure what you mean by "fairytale". I've looked at the dogs that Alan Scott and John D. Johnson used at the beginning of their work (before Johnson started outcrossing), and they were Old Southern Whites. If I'm wrong about that, please tell me how.

I didn't mean to give the impression that the breeders I mentioned were the only ones breeding sound hunting dogs. I mentioned them because they're the ones I'm familiar with.
 

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Many people glorify the OSW. I have yet to see the proof in the pudding.

Can an OSW catch hogs any better than any other AB program focused on hunting? What about those programs that hunt their dogs as well as perform other tasks such as weight pull or protection? What does it say that ABs that are not labeled as OSWs are proving themselves as hunting dogs?

To me it seems to be not much more than a marketing scheme. A way to make that blood seem different than what others have. Which isn't the case, my first AB went back to the same stuff as the White Knight stuff does.

Could you argue it is a "type" of AB? Yeah, I'll give you that. But it's just an AB program focused primarily on hog hunting.

Additionally, there were many names for the AB/OSW when the breed first started coming about. I think a lot of that is due to regional differences. The same way you can have the same breed/type of dog with different names in different regions or countries in the Middle East or in Europe. That has diminished as travel and the ability to ship dogs and watch/hear about dogs all over the world has become significantly easier. The fact that the regional differences/names primarily exist in third world countries now demonstrates that correlation.

ETA: Tigerflag, it is evident from your initial post that what you and I consider the true form of a bulldog is different. And I'm speaking in terms other than that of bloodlines or what the dogs were/are called. I'm talking about temperament and working ability and what is appropriate work for the breed. So your ultimate classic bulldog will be different from mine. I've heard of enough old time bulldogs that had the attitude and ability to do bite work to know I'm not chasing a ghost.
 
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