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Just saw a video of a Manson bandog on youtube - What a dog!!!


I had a thought - Wouldnt the Boxer be the ideal dog to help improve the AB if it is going to be outcrossed for that reason ? they are undoubtedly athletic and look a lot more similar or does it go into more depth than that ?
 

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It's more complicated than simple physical ability/looks - you have to consider temperament as well as what you are wanting to accomplish with the breeding. Sure you could through some really good looking ABs and Boxers together and make some nice looking pups but what good would that do if they didn't have the correct temperament or serve the purpose of what you are trying to accomplish?
 

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Discussion Starter · #104 ·
Wouldnt the Boxer be the ideal dog to help improve the AB if it is going to be outcrossed for that reason ? they are undoubtedly athletic and look a lot more similar or does it go into more depth than that ?
I could see that working well if the Boxer in question had the attributes you needed for your program. I was only using the APBT as an example. I don't see the Pit as being the go-to, cure-all, holy grail of outcross'. Sure, there are many good examples, but a poorly chosen outcross is still a bad breeding.
 

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Boxers are not near the dogs that Pit Bulls are, even the good ones don't compare. Plus, they have a whole host of genetic issues.

If you're not gonna outcrossing to something better than the AB, then why do it? You might as well simply outcrossing to another bloodline or family in ABs. It's still outcrossing, but you'll prob find a better dog.

ETA: I can't watch the video on my phone right now so I'll come back to it later. I have seen quite a few of the Manson family dogs work in person. There are some good ones, but it's still hit or miss. All breeds are though when you're talking about working ability.
 

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Okay, I just watched the video.

Kimbo...I have seen him work many times. Actually, I train with the group where this video was taken. He is a nice dog.
 

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Just google the silver fox experiment. It demonstrates how quickly a breed or species can become watered down. Temperament is by far the hardest set of traits to breed for, yet are the easiest to lose if proper selection isn't adhered to.

A standard calls for a wide range of attributes that designate a dog as a particular breed. This ongoing ideal that pedigree alone makes a dog of a particular breed is futile. Who cares if a dog has a stacked pedigree with all the AB greats, if the dog doesn't meet the standard it's not an AB.

Man I long for the simple days when bulldog was a job description and the dogs that did the job were called bulldogs. Dogs that got the job done being bred to other dogs that got the job done producing more dogs that get the job done.

I got a yard full of dogs that get r done and only one of them can claim being "pure bred". Yet I have another that is more tightly bred yet doesn't carry the "pure bred" status.

With so many breeders breeding for fads and trends within a breed that the complete dog is lost, is it any wonder that those that demand function and purpose step outside the box to breed for it?

I'm sorry but if an AB can't perform as an AB should it's no more an AB than an F1 outcross.
 

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But what is the standard? A dog who is broad, well-muscled and with a blocky head could be any number of breeds. Pitbull? Lab? Mastiff? Change one little thing here, and one little thing there, the breed suddenly changes. Where do we draw the line at how many changes it takes to preserve the AB as it was meant? A big concern of mine is not so much what the dog looks like but what has became of the temperament of the breed. Temperament is, imo, far more important than the looks of the dog. The direction the AB is headed, in part due to popularity and bragging rights of having the biggest, baddest, pitbull on the block has pretty ruined the way these dogs are wired. The AB, by standard, has a specific temperament. To breed for pet quality is an attempt to soften the breed, to "dumb down" an AB is not only an insult but a liability as well. To try and soften temperament is like playing with a loaded gun. It creates weak nerve. The AB is a working dog. AB's aint for everyone. Those that change characteristics to make it "for everyone," are not breeding for AB's. There's enough "for everyone" kinda breeds out there without having to ruin yet another one.
 

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But what is the standard? A dog who is broad, well-muscled and with a blocky head could be any number of breeds. Pitbull? Lab? Mastiff? Change one little thing here, and one little thing there, the breed suddenly changes. Where do we draw the line at how many changes it takes to preserve the AB as it was meant? A big concern of mine is not so much what the dog looks like but what has became of the temperament of the breed. Temperament is, imo, far more important than the looks of the dog. The direction the AB is headed, in part due to popularity and bragging rights of having the biggest, baddest, pitbull on the block has pretty ruined the way these dogs are wired. The AB, by standard, has a specific temperament. To breed for pet quality is an attempt to soften the breed, to "dumb down" an AB is not only an insult but a liability as well. To try and soften temperament is like playing with a loaded gun. It creates weak nerve. The AB is a working dog. AB's aint for everyone. Those that change characteristics to make it "for everyone," are not breeding for AB's. There's enough "for everyone" kinda breeds out there without having to ruin yet another one.
Exactly my point. The further people/breeders move away from a purpose bred dog the more trouble comes about within a breed. When looks becomes the focus, rather than function, the breed suffers in temperament, health, and structure.
 

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The fact is that the written conformation standard for any breed is nothing more than a blueprint. There is room for any breeder to pick and choose traits that they like. Additionally, the winners in the circle are based on the judge's preference of the loose standard.

All breeds have variation in phenotype. All of them.
 

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The genes have been supressed in the AB because an alpha AB at 85 pounds is way too much dog for the average dog owner.
Going by the Monks of New Skeete's temperament test... my dog should be on a battlefield!
I have to do timeouts with him; and cannot play rough; he hates to lose, and I can't afford to let him win.
He was 1st pick; and I was ready to get a line bred female for him... FORGET IT!
He runs up to trucks and pulls Pitbulls out by the face! I have to twist his collar till he passes out to make him let go!
I was disappointed he weighs 83 pounds, his dad is so much bigger. lol If he weighed 10 pounds more; I'd have to kill him. No more AB's.
He's throwing me some beautiful American Bulladors! AB's don't run far in Hawaii, neither do Black Labs, too hot; I have a service dog that can run beside my bicycle all day, and wear out her mom and dad when she gets home!
Coat Color and Inheritance says, For maximum hybrid vigour, breed dominant black with dominant white. I believe it.
 

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I think if you're breeding AB's the old standard should apply. An alpha AB that too big, is too dangerous. I bought my AB with the uderstanding that I could possibly get a dog with Greyhound, and Catahoula in it (just from books I read); and I intended to selectively breed for the leaner dog; I don't drive, I ride a bicycle and need a dog that can keep up. I would not want to put anything else into my AB. But the AB is an excellent dog to give strength, stamina and many other good qualites to other breeds. I read that all Greyhounds have AB type dogs in them; so I'm not just reffering to bullbreeds.
I am disabled and use my dogs to pick up money and things I drop, to pack saddle bags, for support with my cane, and for pulling uphill.
My AB is great at all of that; but he is the baddest dog I've ever seen. I don't mind having a watchdog; but I pushed a man down, and my dog shredded his arm.
Labs are too soft to pull, or lean on and they have softer bites; my Am. Bullador is a nice mix.
 

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He runs up to trucks and pulls Pitbulls out by the face! I have to twist his collar till he passes out to make him let go! .
but he is the baddest dog I've ever seen. I don't mind having a watchdog; but I pushed a man down, and my dog shredded his arm.

You must be proud! Personally, I'm disgusted you would boast in such a way.
 

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I have to agree with Drako. I am glad your dog makes a good service dog for your disability but to allow it freedom to injure other dogs and people is not right.

You as the owner should be responsible and keep your dog away from these situations. I would also think that as a service dog, he should be trained not to be aggressive.

I do not know the situation of the man being pushed down. Perhaps he was trying to hurt you and your dog was defending you,
but allowing him freedom to run up to trucks is not being a responsible dog owner.
 

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I personally love what I see in American Bulldogs these days.
Registered...rather, recognized means nothing to me in way of who could give a crap if an old english has a black nose or not.
If the dog does what you need or want it to do, whats the problem.
What someone says is a perfect example is not always the case with others.

I read previously that some of these breeds are losing their drive characteristics.
I do not believe this is a breed wide issue.
I do see a lot more OEB out there, but this breed is very particular.
For those to say that you have to have a Leavitt OEB or it is not, is dumb.
There is a formula that he used to get the desired result, but many and anyone can and has done the same.
Certain variations will cause a different outcome, but who is anyone to say what is better than the other.

edit...deleted most of this post for if I have nothing nice to say, well...
you know the rest.
 

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It's fascinating reading this thread. I live in a serious pig hunting area and American Bulldogs seem to be getting quite popular here as pig dogs or to breed with other Australian Pig Dog types. I thought I would add this link so you can see how they are viewed over here. The majority are used as working dogs although I did meet a big Johnston type at the vet the other day. His owner was a wild life carer and said he loved all animals and had no problems with the orphan joeys she looks after. Our little AB APBT cross is strictly a pet (although she was bred as a pig dog that didn't make the cut) so I found that very comforting.
I'm just happy for my dogs to make noise and chase pigs away but from what I know of pig hunting dogs work in a group and need to be able to get along even when excitement is high.
Hunting Pigdogs of Australia - American Bulldogs
Cheers, Ann
 

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Hey, Ann - thank you for adding to the thread. We got a baby goat once. It only took
two weeks for us to know we were not going to be able to have any farm animal with
Clara. The minute the goat was here, she was ready to have it for dinner. I guess the
prey drive was too strong for her to recognize it was a pet and not food.
 
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