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OK, the post by Tobysmum inspired me to write a little something about AB's. All too often I see bully type folks bashing performance type folks and vice versa. The fact of the matter is, there are good dogs of every type. I have bully type dogs, but appreciate all types..and have owned all types. This breed has a wide range of looks, type, capabilities...a dog for everyone it seems. That's what makes it so special.

First order..lumping all bully type AB's as Johnson dogs. Not all bully dogs are Johnson dogs. Truth of the matter is many full JDJ type dogs are in sad shape..out in the elbows, sway backed, cowhocked, straight stifled, etc. You couldn't pay me to own a 100% JDJ dog these days. I have bully type dogs..yes, they go back to some Johnson line stuff, but they are not Johnson dogs...I have mostly OSB/BTK/MGK bred dogs. My dogs are bully, yet functional..they can handle high heat, they can jump (some have scaled fences up to 10 feet high) they can swim, they can run, I have done some Schutzhund, I do weightpull, I have caught with them before. Can they do it for the length of time that a well bred performance type can...no..but they can and do still do it. They are lean, cut, well conditioned with some muzzle to them..not extreme by any means, but still bully. Not all bully dogs are non functional, lazy, non driven, couch potatos that have poor structure. I know many breeders of bully AB's that are producing functional bully dogs...you just have to look for them.And again..not all bully dogs are Johnson dogs. There are many different lines of bully AB's.

Performance dogs...same things apply. Not all performance dogs are Scott. There are many lines that are considered standard or performance in type. Shoot..I had a standard type female who was Sure Grip/Hines/Johnson by pedigree...but long muzzled, fine boned, streamlined..There is Kershner/Painter/Hines/Watchdog and a plethora of other performance type lines. I should also mention that not all performance type dogs are the super athletes they are made out to be either. They have some of the same problems bully types do...elongated soft pallette, poor hips, entropian eyes..they are bulldaos after all.

So people, while Johnson and Scott are thrown around as the only kinds of AB, that is just not the case...there are many lines of AB. They can all have similar problems..one is not better than the other..... it all depends on what a particular person wants in a dog. Look for good breeders of both types and appreciate them all for what they have to offer.

As far as what breeds are in each type, they are both mixed...bully type dogs have English Bulldog, St Bernard, Bullmastiff and Dogue De Bordeaux

Performance type have APBT, Catahoula Leapard Hound, Pointer

I'm sure folks have probably added some other breeds along the way as well. Accept the fact that are breed was created with many breeds..neither type is more "pure" than the other.
 

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Good post for new people to the breed.

There are a lot of lines and they are diverse. Elerbee Line, ect..ect.. The NABC is writing about each line once a month in our news letter. Great post. When new people or puppy people ask me about the types and I tell them it is easy to see how confusing it is by looking at there face. It is something we all learn over time.
 

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redbull said:
People who read this thread might also be able to answer this one here or contribute to it, in regards to different lines and working drives and purpose for breeding these lines:

http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/discuss/viewforum.php?f=18



In regards to AB lines, I have a list of well-known lines and what they are known for and good for vs each other and I'll post it soon as I find it again.
That would be awesome!! I am a total idiot when it comes to AB lines and I find all of this very interesting where do you all learn this stuff, shows? competitions?
 

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angie7349 said:
That would be awesome!! I am a total idiot when it comes to AB lines and I find all of this very interesting where do you all learn this stuff, shows? competitions?

I'm all over the place talking to breeders, judges, trainers, on different forums lurking and posting, talking long hours with other bulldoggers and breeders on the phone and in person at their residence, etc lol.. Bulldogs are a bit of an obsession for me and apparently lots of other people. I am surprised at how long some people can hold a conversation on the topic sometimes lol..Most of the people I know and talk to are down in the thick of it in the states, but I know a couple people up here who have been in the bulldog world for over 20yrs - or even longer in one case, from breeding game-bred pitbulls to english bulldogs to OEBs to Boston's and OBBs. It's interesting to hear about how things have changed over the years, especially dealing with the breeds, breeders and the real dogmen of old...but that's a completely different topic.
 

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redbull said:
angie7349 said:
That would be awesome!! I am a total idiot when it comes to AB lines and I find all of this very interesting where do you all learn this stuff, shows? competitions?

I'm all over the place talking to breeders, judges, trainers, on different forums lurking and posting, talking long hours with other bulldoggers and breeders on the phone and in person at their residence, etc lol.. Bulldogs are a bit of an obsession for me and apparently lots of other people. I am surprised at how long some people can hold a conversation on the topic sometimes lol..Most of the people I know and talk to are down in the thick of it in the states, but I know a couple people up here who have been in the bulldog world for over 20yrs - or even longer in one case, from breeding game-bred pitbulls to english bulldogs to OEBs to Boston's and OBBs. It's interesting to hear about how things have changed over the years, especially dealing with the breeds, breeders and the real dogmen of old...but that's a completely different topic.
I am so jealous!! See that all interests me but school is my priorty right now and trtust me it is kicking my a$$.
I got Tora for protection but only in looks..I wanted her to be a huge cupcake and she is, for a while there I wanted to train her but gave up.. The cost/time of PP trainer is unbelievable down here I don't know how much it runs elsewhere but I am glad that I am curious and looked way early for that or I would have spent the next two years wanting to train her then finding out I couldn't...It would have killed me, anyways please post that about the lines it is very interesting to me...Tora is my 1st AB and I doubt that I would every own another breed....She is the perfect dog for me and my family, I could not have asked for more..
 

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angie7349 said:
I am so jealous!! See that all interests me but school is my priorty right now and trtust me it is kicking my a$$.
I got Tora for protection but only in looks..I wanted her to be a huge cupcake and she is, for a while there I wanted to train her but gave up.. The cost/time of PP trainer is unbelievable down here I don't know how much it runs elsewhere but I am glad that I am curious and looked way early for that or I would have spent the next two years wanting to train her then finding out I couldn't...It would have killed me, anyways please post that about the lines it is very interesting to me...Tora is my 1st AB and I doubt that I would every own another breed....She is the perfect dog for me and my family, I could not have asked for more..
Honestly though, don't take my word for anything. Some people on this board will just tell you that I only get my info from one breeder for some odd reason LOL..and they say I think I'm an expert because of it.....idiots....some real ignorant people out there I swear...let em be a$$holes and keep on hating..
/end sarcasm

Seriously though, on the real..I am no expert....but I know many breeders and have been in contact with people from the west coast to the east coast and all in-between. Info is out there and it's a lot easier to talk to people and gather info than most ppl think. I think it's more a matter of how stubborn people are in their beliefs, how much people love to believe in fairy tales about the breed (like how some people think that the standard AB is the closest to the ORIGINAL AB...LOL)... There's a lot of rumours out there but the people who have been in the game since the get-go are the ones who know what's up. When you line breed for so long, you discover things....And many people know for a fact what went on in the early years and over time...What Carrie posted is true, there's been other breeds infused here and there and it's well known amongst breeders.

Here's a shot of a bulldog from the 1920's in the US. Doesn't look like a 'standard' 'scott' type bulldog to me LOL. But you know what? I really could care less as to what the bulldog looked like back then. Does it matter? NO. There are many types of bulldogs over the years, and they all have been mixed with this and that, for certain purposes, and were never really bred for looks (except for the current english bulldog). Working dogs are never bred for looks, there will always be many different lines of bulldogs that will always look different than the rest...and people should leave it at that and accept it. F&*k trying to aim for uniformity within the breed in general, it won't happen and shouldn't happen. The day it does is the day the breed is dead IMO.

BULLDOG: circa 1920 (photo is from 1920)
Idaho, United States
age of dog: unknown (looks like a pup to me tho)




and I am sure there were bulldogs of various other looks back then too. unimportant though, but that photo is cool 8)
 

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angie7349 said:
The cost/time of PP trainer is unbelievable down here I don't know how much it runs elsewhere but I am glad that I am curious and looked way early for that or I would have spent the next two years wanting to train her then finding out I couldn't...

The time that is necessary is a lot yes, but have you looked into joining a club, or only into a private trainer? Private training is expensive, but clubs are definately affordable (maybe not so much timewise but it shouldn't cost a fortune to join a club). Thing is with a non-profit club, they want to see you are dedicated and willing to put in the time to get places. If not, they won't be so willing to train, and that's where you would need a private trainer. Most clubs who feel your dog doesn't have what it takes to become titled won't train your dog.
 

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redbull!

Bulls eye!

Why on earth would a club decoy WANT to take bites from a crapper or a so so dog? It isn't for the money. My club is is free for now and 25 dollars per month!!!! It is about the dogs..............and getting away from my fiance! :lol:

The ONLY think we ask is COME TO PLAY. Don't waste our time so you can breed and post your dog's pics so you can sell puppies. Hey, sometimes you have to post pics of pups to find the huge number of applicants, but I have to say.............I hate these giant molloser breeders who want to take pics of their dogs taking bites! Like I said, pics mean nothing.

Pretty soon, in terms of lines, it will be TYPE, like the German Shepards. Working or show type. It is pretty well that now.
 

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Jose Lopez came up with this lil commentary on the various lines out there. I remembered this topic on his board and pulled it for the sake of this thread. Good lil rundown on some of the various lines out there (please add/edit the following for the sake of this thread):


Pure Johnson blood... downside.... 2 tall.. way too much variation in type and temperament....

upside... he has the most gens of all.. helped save the breed from being extinct... besides that ????....

Mancera edit: I've done several 100% Johnson breedings and double and tripled up close on Rebel Rouiser blood and on 3 different occasions I have produced a Black Brindle bull Mastiff



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Dailey blood... down side.... size and temperament... many people have complained in the past that their Dailey dogs were to small and a bit nervy. IMO it is due to the heavy line/in breeding on Tug O War who I have been told was a bit nervy/skittish... Tug wasn't a big dog.

Upside.. Good to great hips, compact/correct frames, overall a better dog than most "lines" on the market...

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Barbosa blood... Usually BULLY and full of drive...

downsides.. sometimes too bully and too drivey....

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Heavy Fas (King Mufassa) will give you small dogs, skin problems and shitty breathers... upside... FAS!!!!!!!! Bad ass motherfucker that is the epitome of what an American Bulldog should be..

Along with the downsides.. the upsides are the MANY kick ass offspring he has produced!!!!

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Sure Grip line.. Big and mastify...

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MGK... depends on what line.. there is really only 2 relevant MGK lines.. Gator Doozy (first gen MGK) or Brahma Stumpy (second gen MGK)....

Gator Doozy.. nice in the first gen.... very inconsistent in the next.... Brahma Stumpy... well refer to Fas rant....Not too many dogs out of that breeding that turned out.. but the one that did rocks!!!... something about the last "Gator Doozy" breeding that produced a bit different then the first handful of breedings...

No doubt Brahma, Doozy 2 and Kubla Kahn produced differently then the first 5 or so Gator X Doozy breedings...

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BTK

Cord seemed to have a good eye for a good Bulldog... he just had shitty morals as a breeder to keep the papers str8..

Many of his dogs were without question.. basicaly the ones he bought.. Like Ghat and Ghatti...

His dogs are good and outgoing... seem to have good temperamnets and good prey drive... A bit bullier then I prefer across the board.. most likely from the crosses he put into the mix... I've heard everything from Oldies to DDB to Akitas went into that soup...


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Peeler

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Blackwell

Blackwell did do the DDB cross with both Tiny and Black Eyed Suzie... he admits it.. he just doesn't admit putting it into his line of pure ABs... supposedly it was just a "test" to see what would come out...

In other words.. more then likely... Mr Blackwell is a paper hanger as well.. I actually was the one who purchased ALL of his remaining ABs when he left the breed for the Boaerbels... His blood had a nak for producing a chocklate color with the golden eyes before any other line did...

Regardless I wouldn't really say Blackwell had a "line"... like many of us... he just went a few gens deep... his main dogs he is known for were purchased.. Black eyed Suzie I believe was produced by JDJ... and I know one of his main studs Yeti was produced by Peeler.. And that was a product of a first generation breedings Peeler did with Georgia bred to a first gen MGK dog Action Jackson...

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Brave Heart

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Boyds

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Hines

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etc.


Again, feel free to add / edit the list for the sake of this thread / database. Would be nice to see a fully functional database of all the various lines out there... Not sure if there is an available db out there somewhere...


here's that thread where there was a big talk about bloodlines etc...

http://www.manstoppers.com/bullyvard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2668&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1
 

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some more info taken from that thread to be used however...

some famous studs in the bully world that were and are broadly in a lot of breedings, and you'll see in a lot of peds:

Bulldozer Bo = a lot of head and a lot of shoulders. So, if I was going to breed to a Bulldozer Bo son or grandson, I would try to find a female with a really thick rear. Same thing goes for a Bulldozer Bo daughter or granddaughter.

Fas = freaky muscle(ripped) and throws his head piece. This blood works with great with Dailey and Barbosa blood.

Tug = conformation and symmetry, pretty heads with nice muzzle length. If you happen to aquire a Dailey female, pretty much anything will work with it, because his blood is so tight that he's done all the work for you. A shot of some new blood should click with a decent stud dog.
 

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redbull said:
angie7349 said:
The cost/time of PP trainer is unbelievable down here I don't know how much it runs elsewhere but I am glad that I am curious and looked way early for that or I would have spent the next two years wanting to train her then finding out I couldn't...

The time that is necessary is a lot yes, but have you looked into joining a club, or only into a private trainer? Private training is expensive, but clubs are definately affordable (maybe not so much timewise but it shouldn't cost a fortune to join a club). Thing is with a non-profit club, they want to see you are dedicated and willing to put in the time to get places. If not, they won't be so willing to train, and that's where you would need a private trainer. Most clubs who feel your dog doesn't have what it takes to become titled won't train your dog.
I will have to look into it ...I just quit my job so I maybe able to come up with the time...I will be going to college fulltime and working part time maybe I could do it
The ONLY think we ask is COME TO PLAY. Don't waste our time so you can breed and post your dog's pics so you can sell puppies. Hey, sometimes you have to post pics of pups to find the huge number of applicants, but I have to say.............I hate these giant molloser breeders who want to take pics of their dogs taking bites! Like I said, pics mean nothing.
....PeterC I read somewhere that you have a Bio degree did you train your dogs then if so how did you find the time? (I am a Bio student trying for Med school) I have no desire to breed Tora at all!!!! If I had a male and he did well at Sch maybe I would breed bc I would not be the one stuck with the puppies :lol: :lol: I love puppies I just hate raising them :lol:
 

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People normally train twice a week and each session can be 2-4 hours long.

Between this, there is a lot of OBedience work needed on you behalf, this is where you would need to find the time, to do proper SchH OB with Tora. It is much different than what you might think, and depending on Tora's age, you may need to reverse some of your previous obedience training with Tora.

Basically, you would need to find the time to work daily on Tora's OB, as this is the trickiest and hardest part of SchH, beside the tracking LOL...but tracking can be made fun I think, or hope...
 

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My guy is MGK\Suregrip\Johnson he is is all mixed togeather..but I still think he is the kwellest :wink: ...

e
 

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Mine's across the board too, MGK, suregrip, Barbosa, leclerc/painter, but I think his suregrip blood is the strongest. If he were to ever be bred, it would be to a Barbosa b!tch, they make a great match for each other (suregrip+barbosa), little trade secret hehe
 

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Hi!
Here in Slovenija is just one official AB breeder, but they have Johnson type bulldogs, so i got mine from other breeder, she came from Hungary. I want the other type (Scoth), who is bigger and more like pittbull, so i bought scoth type/sure grip AB, but how can you tell? She is just 10 months old and she is big for her age (62/63cm) and weight 86lbs i think (39kg). I'll post some pictures that u can see and hope to find some good answers to my questions...is she really a scoth type AB and how much more she'll grow up? Cause here this breed is very rear, i should ask this questions to u who seems to know much more about this breed...i fall in love with them imidiately when i saw them and i still think that this is very beautiful and special breed and i couldn't be more happier to have one in my arms...Ishtar is the most beautiful and sensitive girl that i ever have... nikson :lol:








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