[jleonar]

Why is it then that dogs naturally do the roll when they are submissive. I would never attempt an alpha roll with an older dog or a dog that I have not worked with but I definately made my puppy get on her side to show submissiveness when she did the wrong thing.

The alpha roll is also not the only thing you need to be doing. You should be a leader is every way with your dog especially during walks.

Dogs naturally roll without having to be pushed by the alphas. A strong leader exudes confidence and doesn't need to force his/her pack members into submission. Forcing your puppy into an alpha roll is confusing and scary for her. I would never risk ruining my relationship with my dog (by confusing her, scaring her, making myself look emotionally unstable) by forcing her into submission using a potentially dangerous technique that might not even get the message across.

You act like it is physically hard to do with a puppy. The moment you say "NO" in a strong assentive voice, they freeze up and I basically push and the dog falls over.

It isn't a big deal. Now if you are talking about alpha rolling with a dominate dog, that is a totally different story. There are too many variables and I am not an expert in dealing with dominant adult dogs.. I would get my head bit off.

However, puppies are not difficult to deal with. I have never seen fear in my dogs eyes when doing this. It isn't an act of physical aggression.

To each their own, as long as people aren't causing physical or psychological harm to their dogs then do whatever method you feel works. I also practice quick touches(similar to what Cesar Millan does with a gentle nudge with his foot). I typically use my hand to poke my dog's ribs when I need to break her obsession with something else.

 

[bella_blue]

You act like it is physically hard to do with a puppy. The moment you say "NO" in a strong assentive voice, they freeze up and I basically push and the dog falls over

So if the puppy freezes up when you say "NO," why is is necessary to take the additional step of pushing her over? Haven't you caught her attention enough? Why not re-direct into something positive like playing with a toy...set her up for success rather than failure. If the puppy isn't even trying to be dominant, why would you put her into a submissive position?

Different strokes for different folks, but your method has been blasted by very well respected dog behaviorists.

 

[halo]

I agree

So if the puppy freezes up when you say "NO," why is is necessary to take the additional step of pushing her over? Haven't you caught her attention enough? Why not re-direct into something positive like playing with a toy...set her up for success rather than failure. If the puppy isn't even trying to be dominant, why would you put her into a submissive position?

Different strokes for different folks, but your method has been blasted by very well respected dog behaviorists.

I agree with this totally

 

[jleonar]

You act like it is physically hard to do with a puppy. The moment you say "NO" in a strong assentive voice, they freeze up and I basically push and the dog falls over

So if the puppy freezes up when you say "NO," why is is necessary to take the additional step of pushing her over? Haven't you caught her attention enough? Why not re-direct into something positive like playing with a toy...set her up for success rather than failure. If the puppy isn't even trying to be dominant, why would you put her into a submissive position?

Different strokes for different folks, but your method has been blasted by very well respected dog behaviorists.

Would you mind providing some links. My basis for my training is taking a little out from a lot of different methods. I believe Koehler mehod of dog training has some value info besides some of the things that I feel are cruel. I have read The Monks of New Skete How to be your Dog's Best Friend. The last book I have read is Cesar's way.

 

[Chynasmom]

Here's a couple for you to check out

POWER OF POSITIVE DOG TRAINING - Pat Miller
THE CULTURE CLASH - Jean Donaldson
SO YOUR DOG'S NOT LASSIE - Betty Fisher & Suzanne Delzio
HOW TO RAISE A PUPPY YOU CAN LIVE WITH - Clarice Rutherford & David Neil
BEFORE & AFTER GETTING YOUR PUPPY - Ian Dunbar
POSITIVE PERSPECTIVES: LOVE YOUR DOG, TRAIN YOUR DOG - Pat Miller
POSITIVE PUPPY TRAINING WORKS - Joel Walton
PUPPIES FOR DUMMIES - Sarah Hodgson
PUPPY PRIMER - Brenda Scidmore & Patricia McConnell
THE OTHER END OF THE LEASH - Patricia McConnell

And... anything by Karen Pryor

 

[scottishdreamer]

Spray Bottles

I've found that a particular scent mixed in the water helps when using a spray bottle. I use essential rosemary oil (just a very few drops to a full bottle) and it distinguishes the bottle water from regular drinking water. My dogs know when I pick it up they're about to get something they don't necessarily want - wet and a time out. Time out is no toys (I pick them all up) and they are told to sit/stay until I let them off their "Penalty Rug."

 

[jleonar]

Ok I haven't read any of those particular books but from the titles, I can eliminate some of them.

While I agree that positive reward based training has it's place, I do not believe it is the end all be all training. I believe dicipline is REQUIRED and using treats to get what you want out of a dog is not going to work all the time.

If that was the case then Petsmart would be the absolute best place for training. They believe in only positive treat based training.

Positive training is great for teaching sit, stay, down, and come but it does not help with issues such as barkiing, digging, and walking on a leash. You have to teach your dog boundaries and "positive" based training isn't going to work. That is not how a mother dog sets rules, boundaries and limitations for her puppies so why do we want to apply human approaches to dog training.

Timeout in my opinion is a bunch of hogwash. Timeout doesn't even work with kids. Do you actually think your dog understands why you are taking the toys up and making him go into a "timeout"?

That is like coming from work and seeing your dog crapped in your floor and smashing his face into it. The dog doesn't understand that. All the dog knows is that you came home and got pissed at him. Eventually the dog will associate you coming home with you being angry at that time.

When you discipline a dog you do it the moment it happens and you move on. It has taken A LOT of work on my part but I do not ever get angry with my dog anymore. I may get upset with some results of the damage that has happened but I never discipline my dog when I am upset over something.

When my dog gets more than a few inches in front of me when I walk her, I don't say "Now get back Lucy, here is a treat". I give a simple , "No" as I give a quick snap of the leash upwards. That sends the signal to the dog to move back and fall in line with the pack. When we have exercised properly then I let her walk where she wants but when we are walking to exercise, she is expected to walk behind me and pay attention to me, not anything else.

I don't believe that any one method will work with every dog and it also depends on what you are trying to accomplish. I taught Lucy how to sit and down using a treat. It is simple to do so and is rewarding for her.

It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

 

[Ice&Blade]

Ok, I have read a lot about this but still a little unsure. How do you make your dog see you as "alpha"? He is really good except for his puppy biting. Does that mean he doesn't respect me and will give me problems later? What should I do about the biting to make sure he knows I am in charge? And how do I know if he sees me as the alpha? I know a lot of questions, but want to catch it before he gets too old. He is already turning into a little beast. I can barely lift him anymore. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

Please don't leave me daddy.

Even if you have a super dominant dog, you can still be alpha. In all fairness the dog may give you regular tests but you can still be alpha. Being the alpha involves more or less everything you do to interact with your dog. Ive always found that the best way to stay at the top of the heirachy is to fool them if you cant beat them. Theres no need for physical force or threatening behaviour towards the dog. Just make sure you have the best of everything, and do the best of everything first, you decide when your dog does anything, and if you are doing something for the dog, he has to work for it. If he wants attention, make him sit, when he needs feeding, you eat first and make him wait, dont allow him to do what he pleases and BE CONSISTENT!!! Consistecy is the key!
Try reading up on the "Heirachy of the wolf pack", you'll be amazed at the similarities between how the Alpha treats the pack, to how we are meant to treat our "pets". Hope that helps

 

[ambulldogpup]

I'm definitely not a dog behavior expert, but I think people read way too much into this dominance thing.

Better safe than sorry, teaching dominance as a puppy can prevent A LOT of training problems ahead. Yes, your right, some dominance techniques are a little ridicolous, atleast for a puppy. The more you read, and as long as you understand what your reading and what the bahviorist is telling you, then I don't see what the problem is in that. Personally, I have read a lot about dog behavior and dominance because I want a dog that I can depend on in training at home and outside.

 

[Chynasmom]

There is a LOT of misinformation about what "positive training" is and is not. Unfortunately, it's been linked with "all treats all the time" and (as any trainer worth her salt will tell you), that's nonsense. The people at Petsmart are very well-meaning, but not particularly knowledgable outside of the basics.

Positive training, properly done, is EXTREMELY effective in establishing good order in the home, preventing and correcting unwanted behaviors such as digging, barking, and pulling on the leash. Dogs are trained via positive methods for obedience, hunting, police work, agility, search & rescue, and schutzhund. It does NOT rely on treats, although many trainers use treats to ESTABLISH and shape behaviors.

I agree that dogs are individuals and many will do fine with the leash-correction methods (again, properly done - there's a lot of misinformation there, too!). But I have yet to meet a dog that learns better through force than through kindness.

Your examples suggest to me that your experience with positive training has been somewhat limited, and may have been with people who are not terribly effective trainers. I'm sorry for that, but please don't broad-brush the good with the bad.

 

[jleonar]

There is a LOT of misinformation about what "positive training" is and is not. Unfortunately, it's been linked with "all treats all the time" and (as any trainer worth her salt will tell you), that's nonsense. The people at Petsmart are very well-meaning, but not particularly knowledgable outside of the basics.

Positive training, properly done, is EXTREMELY effective in establishing good order in the home, preventing and correcting unwanted behaviors such as digging, barking, and pulling on the leash. Dogs are trained via positive methods for obedience, hunting, police work, agility, search & rescue, and schutzhund. It does NOT rely on treats, although many trainers use treats to ESTABLISH and shape behaviors.

I agree that dogs are individuals and many will do fine with the leash-correction methods (again, properly done - there's a lot of misinformation there, too!). But I have yet to meet a dog that learns better through force than through kindness.

Your examples suggest to me that your experience with positive training has been somewhat limited, and may have been with people who are not terribly effective trainers. I'm sorry for that, but please don't broad-brush the good with the bad.

What is the positive training method for teaching a dog to walk on a leash properly? I assume it is either changing directions everytime the dog starts to pull or making the dog sit.

 

[Chynasmom]

Roughly, because I'm at work and REALLY should be finishing a couple of clients' tax returns...

It starts well before formal leash training, with attention work and "follow me" games so the puppy establishes a habit of staying with you. (Note - I'll use c/t to indicate click/treat, because it is what I am most used to, with the caveats that clicking is not universal AND that while treat are very useful at the start as rewards, they are phased out of common use pretty quickly to avoid the puppy simply being lured around by the food.)

So you'd start with short sessions, verbally encouraging the pup to follow along and stay with you, c/t for being in the correct position and maintaining eye contact (click while the pup is moving forward with eye contact, then stop and drop the treat, then start again with verbal encouragement - this links the click (marker) with what the pup is DOING, not with the treat). As you're just starting, your progression forward will be limited. As the pup learns he's getting clicked for being in heel position as you move, you can extend the distance and introduce turns and halts - I start this very gradually, not expecting 90 degree corners until he gets the idea that turns are going to happen and he has to watch for them!

Since I taught Ozy "touch" very early on, I tend to use my left hand as an added stimulus - sweeping forward as we begin, then holding it at my waist as we walk, sweeping upward into the "sit" cue as we halt.

Once you're walking "out in the world", even a well-trained pup is going to give pulling a try when there's something REALLY EXCITING ahead of you. For this, my trainer uses the "be a tree" method. As soon as the pup goes ahead, you stop. Completely. Don't let your hands follow forward with the leash, don't pull back on it. The pup will lunge around a bit wondering why he's not getting anywhere and will eventually look back to see what happened to you. Click the look. And since he knows that the click means he gets a treat, he'll come get it. Back up quickly a few steps and encourage him to close the distance. If he's really into whatever has caught his attention and keeping the leash taut, begin to back up so the leash tension increases. NOTE - you are not pulling him toward you, you are backing up. He only gets the "correct" marker for turning toward you and only gets rewarded for actually coming to you. Then start forward again - or start going in the other direction. You'll probably have to repeat the "be a tree" pattern a couple times each walk, but pup will quickly learn that lunging toward whatever he wants only gets him "penalty yards" in the other direction. Intersperse with attention work, halts and turns to keep his attention on you.

Another note - I don't have any moral objections about letting a dog who is well into his "heel" training bang himself into his (flat) collar by a short stop or quick turn if he's really not focusing. But I only use flat (buckle or martigale) collars, and I don't use this method while the dog is still learning what I mean by "heel".

That's my read on "positive training", really - I don't train the pup by physically correcting his mistakes, I train by rewarding his correct behaviors. Sometimes (mostly when just starting out) that means treats, sometimes it's by withholding what he wants (as in - you will make progress toward the REALLY INTERESTING thing only when you stay at my side, never while you're pulling), sometimes it's play (I use this for "stay" work a lot, because it makes a clear break between the obedience and the reward). My experience with the leash correction methods has been that you're essentially punishing the pup for not understanding what you're asking, and that seems wrong to me. Now my older dog will sometimes give me the "doggy finger" when I tell her to quiet or something like that, and I have NO problem reading her the riot act and putting her in a good long down-stay right in front of me. I holler, I smack my hand on the table/counter, I stand over her and shake a finger, but I do not physically touch her unless she's actually in a dangerous situation. But Ozy is just a puppy and is just learning to translate our weird language and requests, so I try to set him up for success and just redirect when he guesses wrong.


I hope this has been clear and helpful - now I really have to get back to those tax returns!!