first of all, it seems when i post questions if anyone has problems with their AB's being people aggresive no one wants to respond? it think b/c no one else has these problems? well, anyway, here's my question- murphy has been barking at people alot. it's not really a "mean" bark, it's more like a fear/get away from me bark? i have socialized him ALOT. should i be worried?
barking/people aggression
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Its not that nobody wants to reply, its that the original poster doesn't usually like the answers, and it all goes down hill from there.Murphy said:
Should you be worried? Probably to a degree. He probably is just fearful. Its genetic, so its not your fault, the best socializing probably wouldn't have made it alot better. You are just going to have to deal with it. Protect him, teach him to ignore the other stuff and people and to concentrate on you. If you just let this continue then it will only get worse and you could have a fear biter on your hands.
Hopefully that helped a little pm if you have more questions. That is exactly what Dozer was like.
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By people, do you mean strange people? Are there certain types of people that Murphy barks at?
We've been trying to over come a similiar problem, serveral months ago, my mom and I got into a car accident and Abby was in the back seat. We were both very mad at the people that hit us and had some major negative energy reflecting off of us and when the man (over-wieght) approached us, Abby went into this protection mode by barking aggressively. Now when we have people fill gas in the car, she barks at them or if we see a full grown man, she gets nervous around them. By over coming this, we have the people she's barking at give her treats when she's doing good behavior and not having that nervous stance.
I think your problem is over comable and I think it can be solved. As for genetics, I have never heard of that and dogs live in the moment not in the past. Whatever the parents were like, doesn't really matter.
We've been trying to over come a similiar problem, serveral months ago, my mom and I got into a car accident and Abby was in the back seat. We were both very mad at the people that hit us and had some major negative energy reflecting off of us and when the man (over-wieght) approached us, Abby went into this protection mode by barking aggressively. Now when we have people fill gas in the car, she barks at them or if we see a full grown man, she gets nervous around them. By over coming this, we have the people she's barking at give her treats when she's doing good behavior and not having that nervous stance.
I think your problem is over comable and I think it can be solved. As for genetics, I have never heard of that and dogs live in the moment not in the past. Whatever the parents were like, doesn't really matter.
Dozer passed away when he was only 10 months old, so I don't know what would have ever come of it. He never bit anyone, but I NEVER put him in a position where he would feel like he had too. I really protected him, if someone wanted to pet him, and I could tell he was uncomfortable I would just say no. I got Dozer to the point where we could be in a decent crowd of people and he would pay attention to me. When ever he got worried I could tell, and I would put him into a focused heel, or I just stopped and got him to look at me until the scary thing/person was passed. I had it under control. It was hard work. Just really work on him paying attention to you.Murphy said:
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I agree with Bremner. In fact recently I have been thinking to myself that wow, so many people on this forum have dogs with temperament problems. It's kind of scary but I guess with the poor breeding practices of so many people out there, its not surprising. Meagan is right, most people don't like to hear someone tell them they have an unstable dog that they cant fix. Or be told their dog is dominant and they aren't doing the right things to correct it. I think if less people went on the defensive and took the info to heart when asking about temperamental problems, you would have more people offfering advice. It's hard to help and educate people about the problems they are having if they don't want to hear it.Bremner53 said:
Well I tend to feel that 98% of the problems people experience with their dogs are caused by them. Heck I have issues at home myself. Lucy is absolutely awesome with me in most circumstances but is a royal pain in my wife's butt. My wife has spent as much time with Lucy as I have.Lisa said:
The difference? I am confident in my ability to deal with Lucy no matter what. My wife isn't. It is my wife's insecurities that Lucy picks up on and tries to compensate for. Then it is a vicious circle. The more lucy compensates the more my wife loses confidence.
I do not believe Lucy has a genetic problem and most dogs do not when it comes to temperment. Most of the problems are created by the human. For instance, dogs being scared of thunder. Some would just say weak nerves can't do anything about it. When in reality the owner probably coddled the dog the first time it showed fear in that circumstance. They reinforced that behavior of being scared. Now who is at fault. It is the owner.
It isn't that owners are trying to create issues in their dogs, they just don't know any better.
The problem with solving some of the issues on the forum is that we can't get the whole picture. Without the whole picture we can't see what the true underlying problem is.
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I think temperament issues are a mix of genetics and human error. I have seen well bred dogs that were made into basket cases by thier owners...and poorly bred dogs that were very confident critters. But, I won't go into all that.
How have you been with your dog? When your dog acts fearful, what do you do? Most people anthropomorphize thier dogs...meaning they put human emotions into thier dogs. If your child is frightened, you get down, cuddle them and tell them it's OK... dogs do not think that way... if your dog is scared and you react the way you would with a child, you are reinforcing the fear and telling the dog it's OK to be fearful. What you should do if your dog acts fearful is either A. ignore the behavior B. redirect your dogs attention (obedience moves, etc.) It will take time... have some friends/aquaintences help you.... recreate a fearful situation... work your dog in OB from a distance...as he responds, slowly bring him in closer to the action, all the while keeping his focus on you...ignore any fearful responses..only praise when your dog performs well and with confidence. You need to feel confident yourself..going through the motions but fearing anxious on the inside will show through in your posture and actions, thus, setting your dog up to fail. Stay confident, be consistent, and your dog should do much better.
Now, if he is genetically weak, he may never be 100%, but any work you do now and from now on should make your dog a much more confident, easier critter to be around.
How have you been with your dog? When your dog acts fearful, what do you do? Most people anthropomorphize thier dogs...meaning they put human emotions into thier dogs. If your child is frightened, you get down, cuddle them and tell them it's OK... dogs do not think that way... if your dog is scared and you react the way you would with a child, you are reinforcing the fear and telling the dog it's OK to be fearful. What you should do if your dog acts fearful is either A. ignore the behavior B. redirect your dogs attention (obedience moves, etc.) It will take time... have some friends/aquaintences help you.... recreate a fearful situation... work your dog in OB from a distance...as he responds, slowly bring him in closer to the action, all the while keeping his focus on you...ignore any fearful responses..only praise when your dog performs well and with confidence. You need to feel confident yourself..going through the motions but fearing anxious on the inside will show through in your posture and actions, thus, setting your dog up to fail. Stay confident, be consistent, and your dog should do much better.
Now, if he is genetically weak, he may never be 100%, but any work you do now and from now on should make your dog a much more confident, easier critter to be around.
most people don't like to hear someone tell them they have an unstable dog that they cant fix.
Ok, just a suggestion. I know that SOME cases may justify making statements like the one above. Some people ask for advice, then can't take the advice very well. BUT..........
I think, more often, words like "unstable" are thrown around far too quickly. You are right....a lot of people will get defensive if their cherished pet is called such a thing when perhaps there is just one little scenario that bothered them, or perhaps just ONCE, they barked when perhaps the owner didn't see a need for it.
Why don't we attempt to figure out a different stragety for dealing with/helping people with these problems/questions?
Perhaps we need to ask a ton of questions before telling someone there dog is unstable and can't be fixed?
Just my opinion based on observation.
Ok, just a suggestion. I know that SOME cases may justify making statements like the one above. Some people ask for advice, then can't take the advice very well. BUT..........
I think, more often, words like "unstable" are thrown around far too quickly. You are right....a lot of people will get defensive if their cherished pet is called such a thing when perhaps there is just one little scenario that bothered them, or perhaps just ONCE, they barked when perhaps the owner didn't see a need for it.
Why don't we attempt to figure out a different stragety for dealing with/helping people with these problems/questions?
Perhaps we need to ask a ton of questions before telling someone there dog is unstable and can't be fixed?
Just my opinion based on observation.
In fact recently I have been thinking to myself that wow, so many people on this forum have dogs with temperament problems. It's kind of scary but I guess with the poor breeding practices of so many people out there, its not surprising.
Missed this the first time......I know that this statement doesn't apply to
my dog, as I have never posted any issues with my dog, but doesn't anyone think that just this statement alone is kind of insulting and hurtful?
:scratch:
Missed this the first time......I know that this statement doesn't apply to
my dog, as I have never posted any issues with my dog, but doesn't anyone think that just this statement alone is kind of insulting and hurtful?
:scratch:
Not trying to attack Lisa but her views burn a lot of people and I don't agree with a lot of her statements. She is very opinionated and so am I.Lylasmum said:
I don't think most of the problems we witness are actually faults in the dog. I believe that most problems are caused by the owners. Now do I think most dogs could cut the mustard as protection, rescue dogs? No but most people that is fine. They should be able to live a normal life but it is too bad most of the problems are caused by owners who don't care.
However I think most of the people coming here for help are willing to listen if the problem started with them. It is much easier just to say, oh something is just wrong with the dog. Most of the time I think that is flat out wrong.
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Would you care to point out an example where someones dog was prematurely called unstable?
Why so hurtful? Is it better we tell people who have dogs with aggression problems that the behviour is normal and then the person lets their guard down and someone gets bit? You think its better to take that approach to ensure feelings don't get hurt rather than speak the truth to avoid people getting hurt and our bullies making the 6 oclock news?
Look through the General and Training sections of the board and scroll thru the threads that were made in the last couple months. I think if you do that you will quickly realize that my observation is correct. Many people have come to this board recently with concerns over unjustifed aggression.
I do agree most behavioural problems are caused by poor ownership. I will not argue that. However temperament problems are different. Some just are just plain nut jobs. Most because they are fearful. They always have been, always will be. There was nothing anyone did to create that, its just the way the dog is. I don't understand why people can't see or refuse to accept that temperament problems are very often genetic in nature. Why is it that some people could have 2 dogs, one is just full of confidence and can be taken anywhere without getting spooked, but their other dog can't be brought anywhere because its terrified? It's obviously not an ownership problem if one dog has issues and the other not. It's just the way the dogs are hardwired. We all know that there are people born that are just naturally, shy, timid, nervous, etc. The same thing occurs with dogs. Of course all situations like this can vary in severity. Not all are so fearful that they should be euthanized because they are dangerous, but at the same time there are alot that are probably better off pts for the safety of the public. Some can be conditioned to live a fairly normal life with a cautious owner. Some, even with loads of conditioning and training are still liabilities. Each case is different but temprament issues share one thing, and that is that its in the dogs genetic makeup.
Behaivour problems are different. They exist because of poor training on the owners part. Sometimes owners have dogs that are stable, but dominant, and the people don't know how or can't be bothered to properly deal with such a dog. Training issue, not temperment issue.
For anyone that still refuses to believe that tempermanet has a major genetic component, read these articles. I don't expect too many to actually bother, but hey I will try anyway. Someone may have an open mind and learn something from them.
http://www.dogstuff.info/elements_of_temperament_what_is_temperament.html
http://www.dogstuff.info/elements_of_temperament_thresholds.html
http://www.dogstuff.info/elements_of_temperament_nerves.html
I have read the articles and I don't disagree totally but we are talking about pets for most people. A lot of temperment problem can be handled easily by competent owners. I will tell you that Lucy would never pass as a protection dog. Most dogs wouldn't. She does not have the nerve for it. I didn't get her for that purpose. I got her as a companion to me.
However, getting spooked and being a nutjob happen to be things owners can condition their pets to live normally. I can tell you that Lucy HATES motorcycles. When we used to walk our 2 miles in the morning, we typically got passed by motorcycles. At first she would tense up and get fearful. After a couple days of correction on my part, she ignores the sound now. She is not fearful because I conditioned her to know there was no reason to be fearful. Same with thunderstorms. I refused to coddle her during the first thunderstorm she went through. At first she got all tensed up. I made her get into a submissive down and I made her lay at my feet during the storm while I walked TV. Now she just goes around like nothing is happening if a thunderstorm comes around.
Will she get fearful of another sound? It is possible. Do I care? Not really because I am committed to giving her a good life.
Now on the other hand, my new dog dozer is fearless. I can already tell he is going to challenge me at every turn. I believe he has nerves of steel but honestly since he is a puppy, there is no real way to tell.
Are there dogs that are complete nutjobs? Yeah but as far as being quality companions I think there are few and far between that truly can't be helped.
I have a chance of heart
i use to believe in dogs having weak nerves and bad breeding and alot of stuff But I have read the book cesar's way and it HAS changed my way of thinking alot it has made a lot of sense and he does have the record to prove it works. First off all any any dog type of any breed is only agressive because a human made them that way through situations incurred and through there actions and thing they did. But every and any dog can be rehabilated to be NON agressive. with the exception of very very rare cases.
This man has proved this over and over again. All dogs are born in balance and stable. We as humans change what they are by our actions toward them therefore causing them to be unstable and out of balance. And The ones that due the most damage are the ones that have all these standards of what any breed should or should not be by causing undue stresses to the animals. What a breed standard should be is not what a human thinks is should or should not be that is a human thing not a dog thing. If we are willing to learn about the way a dog interperts things from their point of few. we become better pack leaders and there fore better resposible owners with more control & more obediant dogs no matter what breed no matter where they came from. This is a very interesting book I think everyone who owns a dog should read it. they may have a better understanding of how to have a stable dog, how to keep them happy & coexsist with humans, animals and all living things in peace without problems like we see today. Infact you find that some of the advise given on here is correct but you will also see why it's not what you would think. For those who truly love the breed of dog they own it's worth checking it out and learning something that might just not only change how you see your dog, but it may change your whole way of thinking.
i use to believe in dogs having weak nerves and bad breeding and alot of stuff But I have read the book cesar's way and it HAS changed my way of thinking alot it has made a lot of sense and he does have the record to prove it works. First off all any any dog type of any breed is only agressive because a human made them that way through situations incurred and through there actions and thing they did. But every and any dog can be rehabilated to be NON agressive. with the exception of very very rare cases.
This man has proved this over and over again. All dogs are born in balance and stable. We as humans change what they are by our actions toward them therefore causing them to be unstable and out of balance. And The ones that due the most damage are the ones that have all these standards of what any breed should or should not be by causing undue stresses to the animals. What a breed standard should be is not what a human thinks is should or should not be that is a human thing not a dog thing. If we are willing to learn about the way a dog interperts things from their point of few. we become better pack leaders and there fore better resposible owners with more control & more obediant dogs no matter what breed no matter where they came from. This is a very interesting book I think everyone who owns a dog should read it. they may have a better understanding of how to have a stable dog, how to keep them happy & coexsist with humans, animals and all living things in peace without problems like we see today. Infact you find that some of the advise given on here is correct but you will also see why it's not what you would think. For those who truly love the breed of dog they own it's worth checking it out and learning something that might just not only change how you see your dog, but it may change your whole way of thinking.
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Just because someone can rehabiliate a dog somewhat through training and condtioning does not mean the problem did not exist in the first place. Why do some dogs need help and others don't? Not all dogs have issues because their owners made them that way I don't care what anyone says. I am not by any means saying that its never the owner because it quite surely is often enough. Saying all dogs are born equal (stable and strong nerved ) is, I am sorry, ridiculous. This is just not true. If all dogs were equal than why can't police forces, military, and other places that employ working dogs can't just get any old puppy from the pound or backyard breeder and train it do the task they want it to? The reason is simple and that is because many just don't have what it takes. Their nerve base just isn't strong enough to allow them to work through stressful situations. I realize most people here just have pets, and not working dogs but that is not my point. A dog is a dog, and a nerve issue is a nerve issue. Working dog or pet, makes no difference. No one is saying that dogs can't be rehabiliated through training and conditioning because many can. But does this take away the fact that there was a problem in the first place? No it does not. Temperament issues are always there but a good trainer can mask that problem through conditioning and training. Through working with the animal a good trainer can make them better able to cope with the stresses of life but it doesn't take away the fact the problem was there from the beginning. Nerve issues don't go away totally, they are just masked and they will almost always come back to rear their ugly heads at some point and time. Uusally when their owners least expect it.
People who train working dogs are better able to understand what I am trying to say because when you work with dogs you can see how some handle stress better than others. That is part of temperament. Weak dogs will collapse and shut down when the work gets too stressful. Strong dogs are able to prevail. Explain why that is if all dogs are born equal?
I think many of you here are confusing training issues with temperament issues. They are 2 totally different things.
People who train working dogs are better able to understand what I am trying to say because when you work with dogs you can see how some handle stress better than others. That is part of temperament. Weak dogs will collapse and shut down when the work gets too stressful. Strong dogs are able to prevail. Explain why that is if all dogs are born equal?
I think many of you here are confusing training issues with temperament issues. They are 2 totally different things.
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I actually agree with this. I mean, why else would people who are knowledgable about dogs, emphasize breeding for temperament?Lisa said:
I have a question, though. You said weak dogs will collapse and shut down when the work gets too stressful. What are some things the dog does that indicate it is shutting down? Sorry, I just was wondering what kind of behaviour is displayed when this happens.
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