[yungster]

Snoopy, I won't allow her near my son because 2 mos ago she growled and bit my hand. (Didn't really break the skin, but only because I moved my hand fast enough.) Granted I was taking a treat from her mouth that she stole from Heaven, and she was only 4 mos old at the time... but I haven't trusted her since. She has also gotten so exicted about food that she has bitten my hand when I'm feeding her. I am afraid that my son will be eating something, and she will go after his face when he puts food in his mouth. Even though she is a puppy, I won't risk my son's well-being. I realize I cannot keep her if this behavior continues, but I'm trying to see if maybe I overreacted, and maybe she can still be dealt with.

She has not shown any signs of aggression since then. (Just fear.) I have put my hand in her bowl while she's eating, and the only thing she did was squat and pee. Not a great response, but at least she didn't snap. She sounds so hopeless, but she is only 6 mos old. How old does a dog have to be before you know there's nothing more you can really do?

 

[Lisa]

agree with this one - a strong dog is a strong dog and a timid dog, usually stays a timid dog - even with alot of work.

You mention that you do not allow her around your son, is there any particular reason for this? I disagree with the people who say socialising won't do anything. I believe that considering your dog hasn't been around the people she will have to deal with every day - she is in dire need of more socialisation that she's getting.

Hmmm..I don't understand. Maybe I am missing something but it seems like this is a bit of a contradiction.

:?

I do not blame the owner of this dog for keeping it away from her son. Even if the dog hasn't actually been aggressive it is showing alot of FEAR (backing up and submissive urinating). Fearful dogs are always the most likely to bite. Why take the chance?

 

[PeterC]

why ?

Why build confidence? Why not just get a new dog with confidence in the first place and forget the stress and headaches. forget the nervy growls, the bolting off into the field. Forget the avoidance stance.

PS. bulldog that needs to build confidence..................hmmmmmmmmmm. Isn't that an oxymoron?

 

[yungster]

Re: why ?

Why build confidence? Why not just get a new dog with confidence in the first place and forget the stress and headaches. forget the nervy growls, the bolting off into the field. Forget the avoidance stance.

PS. bulldog that needs to build confidence..................hmmmmmmmmmm. Isn't that an oxymoron?

Well I get what you're saying, but I don't want a new dog... I rescued her from a bad situation, knowing she may come with issues, so I feel I owe it to her to give her a chance. I just haven't figured out if I have done enough, or is there more I can do... Can I not "fix" this one... should I give up, or try harder. That's what I'm trying to figure out. (Thank you all for helping me out too.) If she was an adult, there would be no question. But she's 6 mos old. How long do you work on this behavior before the dog shows its true colors? I just want to make sure I have done everything humanly possibly to give Nala the best life she deserves.

 

[PeterC]

luvabull....

WHY would you adopt a dog you KNOW may have issues? That is crazy.

The shy, skiddish ones NEED to be put down.

Would it not be MORE rewarding to get a stable dog that needs a home and adopt that one out so he can have a loving family? Which one is more productive?

If you have a big heart, then use it wisely. Am I wrong?

 

[Cinder]

Kill the beast!!!!





Sorry, quoting Disney movies again.

 

[yungster]

Re: luvabull....

WHY would you adopt a dog you KNOW may have issues? That is crazy.

The shy, skiddish ones NEED to be put down.

Would it not be MORE rewarding to get a stable dog that needs a home and adopt that one out so he can have a loving family? Which one is more productive?

If you have a big heart, then use it wisely. Am I wrong?

Peter, I'm just saying that anyone who rescues doesn't know for sure what they're getting in to. No one KNOWS when they adopt a puppy from a shelter. I wasn't looking for a prize-winner, or a working dog.. I was looking for a pet, and wanted to save one that had no home.

ETA: The rescue group also didn't know anything about Nala when they got her. They literally picked her up from Kentucky, transported her to Ohio, where I met them as soon as they arrived, and she went home with me. Even if they had known she would be shy, it's against their code of ethics to euth for that reason, being that they rescue mostly from high kill shelters. My contract states that I must consult a professional for all behavioral and training issues. And I will, if I have to. But it only takes common sense to see that she is not a stable puppy. Yet on the other had, she is just that -- a puppy. My question here is how do you know when you can't really help anymore.

 

[PeterC]

I think only you can answer that.

For some, like me, it would be very little. For you, you will go far. I admire your tenacity.

My granddaddy said, " make sure all that love you give that dog is worth it."

Is it worth it?

 

[PaulaEdwina]

Take this for what it's worth but I'd be concerned about a dog of this type with such a weak personality. I'd be concerned about a ridgeback or a shepherd being that fearful. My questions would include:

1. will she get better - be less fearful.
2. how will she act when cornered?

Just my two cents.
Paula

 

[yungster]

I think only you can answer that.

For some, like me, it would be very little. For you, you will go far. I admire your tenacity.

My granddaddy said, " make sure all that love you give that dog is worth it."

Is it worth it?

You know, when she looks at me with those huge hazel eyes, and reaches up to kiss my face... I say yes, she is definitely worth it. But as Paula pointed out, we're not dealing with a shepard, she's a pit bull who will probably grow up to be quite powerful, and potentially dangerous. Can I put down the sweet little puppy who was just kissing my face? I can't, I just can't. I am not that strong. But I will try my best to see if she can improve to the point of being stable. When I have exhausted every effort to improve her confidence, I will have no choice. I can't pass along her problems to someone else. And I hope the day never comes that I have to make that decision. I just want to make it all better. :sad7:

 

[PaulaEdwina]

I think only you can answer that.

For some, like me, it would be very little. For you, you will go far. I admire your tenacity.

My granddaddy said, " make sure all that love you give that dog is worth it."

Is it worth it?

You know, when she looks at me with those huge hazel eyes, and reaches up to kiss my face... I say yes, she is definitely worth it. But as Paula pointed out, we're not dealing with a shepard, she's a pit bull who will probably grow up to be quite powerful, and potentially dangerous. Can I put down the sweet little puppy who was just kissing my face? I can't, I just can't. I am not that strong. But I will try my best to see if she can improve to the point of being stable. When I have exhausted every effort to improve her confidence, I will have no choice. I can't pass along her problems to someone else. And I hope the day never comes that I have to make that decision. I just want to make it all better. :sad7:

Just for clarity LuvaBull, I WOULD have the same questions for a shepherd, and for the same reasons.

Paula

 

[yungster]

Oh woops, I read that too quickly. I meant that this breed is much more powerful than other breeds, all the more reason to be carfeful. But yeah, you're right there too.

 

[Snoopy]

agree with this one - a strong dog is a strong dog and a timid dog, usually stays a timid dog - even with alot of work.

You mention that you do not allow her around your son, is there any particular reason for this? I disagree with the people who say socialising won't do anything. I believe that considering your dog hasn't been around the people she will have to deal with every day - she is in dire need of more socialisation that she's getting.

Hmmm..I don't understand. Maybe I am missing something but it seems like this is a bit of a contradiction.

:?

I do not blame the owner of this dog for keeping it away from her son. Even if the dog hasn't actually been aggressive it is showing alot of FEAR (backing up and submissive urinating). Fearful dogs are always the most likely to bite. Why take the chance?

How is this a contradiction? Do you just go around trying to upset people?

I won't even bother replying to your question - although you obviously are missing something.

 

[Snoopy]

I think only you can answer that.

For some, like me, it would be very little. For you, you will go far. I admire your tenacity.

My granddaddy said, " make sure all that love you give that dog is worth it."

Is it worth it?

You know, when she looks at me with those huge hazel eyes, and reaches up to kiss my face... I say yes, she is definitely worth it. But as Paula pointed out, we're not dealing with a shepard, she's a pit bull who will probably grow up to be quite powerful, and potentially dangerous. Can I put down the sweet little puppy who was just kissing my face? I can't, I just can't. I am not that strong. But I will try my best to see if she can improve to the point of being stable. When I have exhausted every effort to improve her confidence, I will have no choice. I can't pass along her problems to someone else. And I hope the day never comes that I have to make that decision. I just want to make it all better. :sad7:

There is no way "I" would give up on a 6 month old dog that you want to put alot of effort into.

It sheds alot of light that she has been saved from a bad situation. A dog can be changed when it is a pup, and obviously whatever was done to this pup or the way she was treated, changed her for the worse.

You are going to obviously spend heaps and heaps of time on her, basically alowwing her to trust again.

I would never suggest to leave any children alone with any dog - but I think you'll need to start getting her used to other people and animals, because the longer you leave this and think about it, the harder it will be to build her up again.

I really wish you all the best with her, because you obviously love her and want to do the right thing.

 

[TobysMum]

I'm beginning to be disliked here for my decisions but I'll post anyway..

A while back on the old forum I had posted about Toby's nervousness and submissive urination, etc. Well, Toby is now fear aggressive. My reasonings for not being around much in the past 8 months or so. I thought I was doing well and going to obedience classes, socializing him with other dogs and people on my own. To no avail.. I don't want you to feel she is hopeless, but I'd definitely put the effort into it. I gave up on obedience classes and what not after he finished in April. Which at that point, I planned on putting him to sleep. He was a year old in April and starting showing dog aggression (with strange dogs). Toby is a fear biter... I worked up the nerve to call behaviorists and everything over the last few weeks because I want him to succeed but from what I was told its going to take a very, very long time if he will even change at all. He's fine with puppies but he will not tolerate other dogs at all. If you've watched Ceaser Milans last show about the pitbull who freaks out (yipping and jumping, etc) when she saw other dogs.. Thats Toby.. He was very afraid of me, my family, my boyfriend, and his family. He's fine with all of them now but will only allow them to pet him.. Nothing more. He has defended me in certain instances (which I'm not going into be/c its a LLOONNGG story) but I cannot trust him not to "fear bite" with people he doesn't know. It's a scary situation when they get to that point. Toby did everything Nala did when he was her age but now.. he's a monster in other peoples eyes. He sleeps with me, he's my love bug, and he's just an amazing dog inside the home. Other than that he's a nutcase. Do I plan on putting him to sleep? Nope.. I refuse. I took him on, so I'm taking the responsibility. For me alone, he's perfect. It's just the stranger thing that I can't and won't tolerate.

Just living the life that you're possibly going to go through, I've here if you ever need to talk about her or something..

 

[PaulaEdwina]

I'm beginning to be disliked here for my decisions but I'll post anyway..

A while back on the old forum I had posted about Toby's nervousness and submissive urination, etc. Well, Toby is now fear aggressive. My reasonings for not being around much in the past 8 months or so. I thought I was doing well and going to obedience classes, socializing him with other dogs and people on my own. To no avail.. I don't want you to feel she is hopeless, but I'd definitely put the effort into it. I gave up on obedience classes and what not after he finished in April. Which at that point, I planned on putting him to sleep. He was a year old in April and starting showing dog aggression (with strange dogs). Toby is a fear biter... I worked up the nerve to call behaviorists and everything over the last few weeks because I want him to succeed but from what I was told its going to take a very, very long time if he will even change at all. He's fine with puppies but he will not tolerate other dogs at all. If you've watched Ceaser Milans last show about the pitbull who freaks out (yipping and jumping, etc) when she saw other dogs.. Thats Toby.. He was very afraid of me, my family, my boyfriend, and his family. He's fine with all of them now but will only allow them to pet him.. Nothing more. He has defended me in certain instances (which I'm not going into be/c its a LLOONNGG story) but I cannot trust him not to "fear bite" with people he doesn't know. It's a scary situation when they get to that point. Toby did everything Nala did when he was her age but now.. he's a monster in other peoples eyes. He sleeps with me, he's my love bug, and he's just an amazing dog inside the home. Other than that he's a nutcase. Do I plan on putting him to sleep? Nope.. I refuse. I took him on, so I'm taking the responsibility. For me alone, he's perfect. It's just the stranger thing that I can't and won't tolerate.

Just living the life that you're possibly going to go through, I've here if you ever need to talk about her or something..

Okay,

I went back and edited my post. My first attempt was far too diplomatic that it probably would have sent the wrong message. So I've put on my flame retardant suit and am re-writing this response.

I am sorry but your post is an example of someone who has completely lost perspective.

1. This dog had a fear temperament from the beginning. Obedience training did not help.

2. You know this is a problem because you yourself admit that you hesitated to get expert help.

3. You say the dog is a fear biter. By this statement I take it this dog has already bitten at least one person? Fear biters are not cureable in general. But you know that, that's why you wouldn't speak to a trainer.

4. You say this dog has 'protected' you before? So he HAS bitten someone, and someone you know right.

5. You say this dog tolerates your family petting it but nothing else. So what happens WHEN someone in your family makes a too sudden move and freaks out your crazy pitbull? It's going to happen. What about some poor unfortunate visitor to your home? What about the vet, the vet tech, the kennel worker that your dog will one day encounter?

6. Do you muzzle him when you take him for walks? Is his run solidly made so he's not going to go through the fence and be another pitbull statistic?

7. BTW weren't you in another thread contemplating 'rescuing' some bulldog pups from a pet store? How were you going to manage Toby and this other dog or other dogs?

8. This dog is one year old. He has the potential to live another 12 years. Do you plan on remaining childless for the next 12 years? How does this timebomb figure in to your future?


UNBELIEVABLE!
Paula

 

[msvette2u]

Well I can tell you if she was in my shelter that I'd not have sent her out, in all liklihood, to a rescue even. But I only have one question, you knew her background, that she might have problems, why did you wait until she was 6 mos. to start wondering about her behavior? If I'd been you and took on such a project dog, I'd have gotten into obedience or sought professional help much sooner than you are, if you even ARE consulting a specialist in dog behavior. And don't sit HERE wondering if you're doing the right thing or if you need to put her down or whatever, ask the PROFESSIONAL behaviorist. If you can't afford one or don't have the time, then do the right thing and do not foist her onto someone else, just have her put to sleep. If you're that afraid of her being around your kids then put her down.

 

[ultimatek9]

When we had a lady visits our dog school with her very fearful dog, the trainer asked that she kept the dog leashed and just walked around ignoring the dog, same at home, pop her on a leash tie her to your waste walk around ignoring her no eye contact. He was very persistence that she did not allow the dog to hide. After a few lessons she never returned, she was able to handling the problem herself.

This is called the umbilical cord method. I use it with all of my puppies and new dogs. I would definitely recommend using it.

I just took in a Chihuahua last Monday. He is a severely insecure-dominant with a major fear aggression problem. His owner said that he had not been socialized when he was younger, and then started becoming aggressive toward people. So she "sheltered" him. He stayed inside, never went on walks, and was crated when anyone else was around. The past six months he has now turned his aggression towards his owner and her mother. Therefore, she decided she didn't want him anymore. None of the rescue groups would take him in due to his aggression and the fact that he has drawn blood.

Anyway, I agreed to take in the reincarnate of Satan and see what I could do with him.
His owner told me that his aggression triggers are: anyone trying to pet or pick him up, putting a collar or harness on him, trying to make him walk on a leash, trying to put him in his crate, trying get him out of his crate, going near him when he is eating or chewing on something, trying to bath or groom him, messing with his feet, messing with him when he is sleeping, and other animals.
Once I got him home, I started by dumping him out of his crate and then cornering him to slip a leash over his head while trying not to get bit. I took him outside for a bathroom break. Then I took him back to his kennel for the night. His owner said that Georgie basically lived in his crate; because she was afraid of him. He was terrified to go back in. He turned even more aggressive, but I refused to let him win. He finally went in after biting me 20+ times, and realizing that I wasn't backing off.

The next day I "umbilical corded" him to me, and ignored him. Every time I walked toward him or stepped over him, he would growl and bear his teeth. I just kept on with what I was doing. The only time I corrected him was if he snapped at me or lunged at one the other animals. I also required my husband to ignore Georgie. We did this all day Tuesday and Wednesday. By Thursday, he was craving attention and would jump up in our laps or paw at us. We would just ignore him or brush him off of our laps. We have now had him just over a week, and he is showing very little aggression toward us or the other animals. He is also going with the other dogs on their daily walks, and is doing great.

I am socializing him with other people, by taking him out in public and asking people to ignore him. The same way my husband and I did. This allows him to check out the new people in his own time without feeling threatened by people reaching at him. Once he gets more comfortable with them, I have the person squat or sit down while still ignoring Georgie. Then I have them calmly offer him food or treats, but never try and pet him. Once he gains enough confidence to approach people I have them calmly pet him on the chest and under the chin, never on the head (this can be very threatening). This process has worked very well in the past and is working beautifully with Georgie. In the past week, four new people have pet him without him biting or growling. Three of them were guys, which he supposedly hates.

You said that your puppy is food motivated, I would use this to your advantage. When you go to put her in her room use a stuffed kong or one of the "Premier" food dispensing toys. This will make it more of a positive experience. Also, try putting her away before you start getting ready or start stressing out.

 

[Snoopy]

Great post!!!!

 

[msvette2u]

Great post!!!!

ditto!!!