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Have you ever wondered why some dogs are a “natural” when it comes to producing other dogs with their own good qualities? While there are some others that can’t reproduce their good qualities no matter with how many different females they’re bred to? This is where genetics comes into place. And although I’m not geneticist (someone with a professional degree in genetics), I am a science teacher and have had to learn enough about it to get my teacher’s license and teach it. Genetics, as in electricity, can sometimes be illogical to those who never deal with it. I’ll try to give some insight on this matter as simple as I can for most to be able to grasp it.

When it comes to the Working Dog, genetics is a bit more complicated to decipher than it is for the conformation breeders. It’s “easier” to establish the physical traits of a breed than it to establish the behavioral characteristics shaped by their genes. Ex: If you have a solid black dog and breed it to a red female and whole litter turns out to be black, you can assume that dominant trait that defines the color of the pups is in the male. Likewise us working dog people want dogs with certain natural qualities (prey drives, civilness, hardness, etc.)

Lets say we have a stud that is extremely “civil”. And when bred to different females (even show dogs) produces very civil dogs. We can assume that this particular stud dog’s civil gene is dominant. Let’s name this dog’s civil trait as (AA). On the other hand let’s say this dog was bred to a female who’s genetic makeup for that trait was recessive. Meaning that civilness is present but can be overlapped by another trait (non-civilness). Let’s say that the genetic makeup of this female is (aa). The pups of these two individuals will have a percentage of dogs with the traits being (Aa). Let do the same for another trait. You choose, be it Desire to Please, Hardness, Prey Drive ….. whatever. And call this trait (B). And have a female with the genetic makeup (Bb). Cross this female with an (Aa) male and all these possibilities can pop up; (AB), (Ab), (aB), (ab).

We’ve just scratched the surface here. For there are thousands of traits and that many more possible combinations of them. That’s why one particular dog may be a great working dog and produce crappy workers, while other dogs can produce great ones. Good breeders who know the “in’s” and “outs” of genetics can have a very successful working dog breeding program with relatively few dogs while others who don’t have this applicable knowledge will need a huge amount of dogs to produce only a small amount of good workers. I hope I haven’t been too technical and this part of genetics has been “understandable” enough.
 

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Interesting topic!

Welcome back, haven't seen you in over a week..

:hello2:
 

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nelson.....great post.

That is why you need a tightly bred dog as a stud animal. How many times have you seen a not so good dog (too civil or too much drive) bred very very tightly, when bred to an outcrossed female with good working lines, produce excellent outcrossed dogs, retaining many of the stamped in traints of the tighter bred dog. The next breeding from these progenies..........all crap!

I do think that a dog has to be tightly line bred to get consistency within a litter.

Breeding is definitely an art.

However, honestly, the best breeders get results from culling. Not letting any of the average dogs survive. That is why you see better and better dogs coming from Czec. That is why you have heavy culling in greyhounds, competition labs, rolling pits.
Survival of the fittest. Breeding is a cruel endevour.
 

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I actually like the idea of culling, i think it does nothing but better the breed.
Why do we need lesser versions of the breed (pet quality) walking around?
All they do is get pregnant and have even lesser quality dogs running around.
It's pointless.
 

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PitBullRoyalty said:
I actually like the idea of culling, i think it does nothing but better the breed.
Why do we need lesser versions of the breed (pet quality) walking around?
All they do is get pregnant and have even lesser quality dogs running around.
It's pointless.
I couldn't agree more
 

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PitBullRoyalty said:
I actually like the idea of culling, i think it does nothing but better the breed.
Why do we need lesser versions of the breed (pet quality) walking around?
All they do is get pregnant and have even lesser quality dogs running around.
It's pointless.
I feel the same about humans...
 

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bigut64 said:
PitBullRoyalty said:
I actually like the idea of culling, i think it does nothing but better the breed.
Why do we need lesser versions of the breed (pet quality) walking around?
All they do is get pregnant and have even lesser quality dogs running around.
It's pointless.
I feel the same about humans...
:lol:
 

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bigut64 said:
PitBullRoyalty said:
I actually like the idea of culling, i think it does nothing but better the breed.
Why do we need lesser versions of the breed (pet quality) walking around?
All they do is get pregnant and have even lesser quality dogs running around.
It's pointless.
I feel the same about humans...
So do I.. LOL!
 

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PitBullRoyalty said:
I actually like the idea of culling, i think it does nothing but better the breed.
Why do we need lesser versions of the breed (pet quality) walking around?
All they do is get pregnant and have even lesser quality dogs running around.
It's pointless.
This is why we educate people on the importance of spaying and neutering or pets and a responsible breeder will have a spay or neuter contract on there pet quality dogs...

Because something is not equal in your personal perspective it should be killed...that is just wrong...

I have two very good friends that are quads in chairs (one being genetics) both Monster Truck mechanics but cannot walk..so they are of a lesser value in your perspectives..go to there web sites and you tell me how they are of any lesser value than u or I...www.gravedigger.com and www.shakerbuilt.com..

I think never..

Not trying to stir a muck, but think about what you just stated..

The one man has a Golden Retriever with HD..that dog has been that mans rock, motivation and his best friend for over 10 yrs..how can you say the dog is of lesser value..even if not perfect in your own personal perspective.. does not make a "Pet Quality dog" not perfect in someone elses perspective..

e
 

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Erica said:
This is why we educate people on the importance of spaying and neutering or pets and a responsible breeder will have a spay or neuter contract on there pet quality dogs...

Because something is not equal in your personal perspective it should be killed...that is just wrong...

I have two very good friends that are quads in chairs (one being genetics) both Monster Truck mechanics but cannot walk..so they are of a lesser value in your perspectives..go to there web sites and you tell me how they are of any lesser value than u or I...www.gravedigger.com and www.shakerbuilt.com..

I think never..

Not trying to stir a muck, but think about what you just stated..

The one man has a Golden Retriever with HD..that dog has been that mans rock, motivation and his best friend for over 10 yrs..how can you say the dog is of lesser value..even if not perfect in your own personal perspective.. does not make a "Pet Quality dog" not perfect in someone elses perspective..

e
I think a key point in your first part is "responsible breeder" . I don't believe that there are enough breeders being responsible or following through for the betterment of the breed. If the defect is obvious in a high COI breeding then I agree that culling is a logical choice. This wouldn't affect someone’s retriever w/HD as that would be a defect that doesn't show early enough for culling anyways, but certainly such animal should not ever reproduce. And you can't cull temperament traits as they develop beyond the culling period.

It seems funny to me how breeders can make a determination on what is "pet" and what is "breed" quality at 7-8 weeks. The pheno at that age can certainly going to change and the temperament has not been tested or evaluated. So theoretically that "buyer" that paid "breed quality" price for his pup, that turned out healthy and has good conformation, but has faulty temperament is going to find reasons why it is OK to breed his "breed quality" dog....

As far as the people subject goes.... of course I don't believe in culling, but I've seen plenty of dumb a*** unproductive members of society that shouldn't breed!

And just to add about strong temperament.... the lack of is a fault :!:
 

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See... I think the opening topic to this post is a bit problematic... you're assuming there's not "multiple allelles" (Spelling?) for temperament... i.e. how you breed a black lab and a yellow lab and you get a few blacks, a few yellows, and a few chocolates.

Additionally, while I do agree that breeding of animals w/ bad temperaments is a terrible idea, I don't think that culling is necessarily the right idea. Plenty of pet quality animals are great for being pets though they don't exactly qualify under the breed standard... my family has a Rhodesian Ridgeback mix that is ridgeless, but is an amazing pet... sweet, obedient, just protective enough. Culling of an animal like her b/c she's ridgeless and not show-quality would be cruel.
 

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while I do agree that breeding of animals w/ bad temperaments is a terrible idea, I don't think that culling is necessarily the right idea
If (thats a big if) you were able to tell at a normal culling age that an animal had an undesirable temperament, but yet you don't feel that culling is necessarily the right thing to do, then what would be the right thing? Finding a great home for a animal with a bad temperament? Maybe we wait till the animal rips some child up then we cull the animal then.... or should the animal be allowed one strike, because it was probably the childs fault anyway.

Again.... for the betterment of the breed as a whole, culling is the logical choice. You can only cull for the obvious undesirable traits. Traits that develope whether multi-factoral or otherwise need to be removed from the program! So when undesirable traits develope breeders need to do the right thing... show champ or not! Likewise desirable traits need to be tested for!!!!!!!!

The number of breeders that can actually follow up on their spay/neuter is a drop in the haystack to the number of animals being bred yearly. So this doesn't work either.
 

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wrknrott said:
while I do agree that breeding of animals w/ bad temperaments is a terrible idea, I don't think that culling is necessarily the right idea
If (thats a big if) you were able to tell at a normal culling age that an animal had an undesirable temperament, but yet you don't feel that culling is necessarily the right thing to do, then what would be the right thing? Finding a great home for a animal with a bad temperament? Maybe we wait till the animal rips some child up then we cull the animal then.... or should the animal be allowed one strike, because it was probably the childs fault anyway.

Again.... for the betterment of the breed as a whole, culling is the logical choice. You can only cull for the obvious undesirable traits. Traits that develope whether multi-factoral or otherwise need to be removed from the program! So when undesirable traits develope breeders need to do the right thing... show champ or not! Likewise desirable traits need to be tested for!!!!!!!!

The number of breeders that can actually follow up on their spay/neuter is a drop in the haystack to the number of animals being bred yearly. So this doesn't work either.
I see your point. There's certainly a difference between a 120 pound animal that has such a bad temperament that it is literally a danger to society, and by all means that dog should definitely be culled. However, sub-show quality dogs, or dogs that simply don't have much drive, and seem to be loving devoted pets, shouldn't be culled, but spayed and neutered to not reproduce.
 
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