[Lisa]

Without knowing what the OP means by "guard dog" it is impossible to answer this question.

Depending on a person's expectations, I could offer a variety of dogs I know personally as examples of "guard dogs" including miniature poodles, Westies, Dachshunds, Labrador Retrievers, Border Collies just to name a few. Get my drift?

 

[Lisa]

I mean attack an intruder.

a threatening one or a passive one?

 

[Lisa]

When it comes to engaging it most certainly matters if the person is passive or threatening. It also matters how quickly the intruder will retreat after the dog comes forward at them with aggression or even just perceived aggression. If a person were to break into my house, they would certainly be met by a dog that will be barking and growling at them. However, how the intruder reacts will determine how my dog reacts. My dog which is quick to bark, growl, and charge would be very quick to retreat at the slightest amount of forward aggression by an intruder. Without giving specific expectations it is impossible to answer. The answer would also vary from individual dog to individual dog. There are strong dogs and weak dogs in every breed.

 

[Lisa]

Wait what??? An intruder is an intruder what difference does it make if they're passive or threatening? Is there a difference between an armed and unarmed burglar it's still a burglar.

I understand what you are saying. Any intruder deserves to get his ass shredded. However any dog will bite an intruder who freezes in his tracks or backs away immediately at the first site of a dog. But take the crazy crack head who is out of his mind and not afraid to keep coming forward acting aggressively himself.....not all dogs would have the nerve to engage someone like that. that's why I asked what the expectations were of the OP. I know lots of dogs who would bite someone who didn't pressure them but would take off running if they encountered anyone with some guts or too high to care.

 

[Lisa]

When I said passive, I meant someone who is more or less just being neutral. Not necessarily still, but not acting aggressive either.

I agree that most dogs of med-large size will deter the average person from breaking into a home. Most people would rather chose another house than stick around and find out how tough the dog is.

Depending on a person's idea of what a guard dog should be, the dog may not necessarily have to possess strong character or even strong defense drive in order to fit that bill.

 

[Lisa]

an intruder with no one home would be hard to tell, but im sure a older dog who is ur companion if u were being hurt would defend u.

what makes you so sure of that?

 

[Lisa]

I think all u guys are seriously underestimated ur dogs and they're ability to sense when things are wrong and the will to survive. IMO

You do realize that the most natural reaction for a dog who is feeling threatened is to flee the situation correct? Dogs who possess the temperament to fight an aggressive intruder are the exception not the rule.

I would seriously like to know how you have formed the opinions you have? Real life experiences? If so can you describe the situation(s)? Experience with protection trained dogs? Police dogs? Security dogs? What exactly makes you feel so confident in your dogs ability to protect you from a threat?

 

[Lisa]

Whether or not a dog will bite someone depends on so many things.

Whether or not a dog will bite someone and stay on that bite until commanded to let go is something else to consider.

Again, it comes down to...

one's definition of "guard" or "protect".

Does guard dog mean...

a dog that will bark when a stranger enters the property

a dog that will bite someone who enters their property regardless of intent (no discretion)

a dog that will only bite if a physical threat is being made towards it or it's owner(s)

a dog that will bite and stay committed to the bite until commanded to let go even if if the intruder is fighting back, attempting to hurt the dog etc.

Something else to consider....

If you were in a bar and someone walked up to you and started punching you for no reason, but you just stood there and took it or tried to walk away, would you consider the person who attacked you to be a "tough guy"? Obviously not because you never attempted to fight back. Most people, when encountered with an aggressive dog are going to either freeze in their tracks or back away so of course the dog is going to appear confident. With many dogs, you will see that confidence fade pretty quickly when they actually encounter a person that will come forward at them with aggression (taste of their own medicine so to speak).

See what I mean when I say it depends on your expectations or definitions?

does "protect" or "guard" = strong character? Not necessarily.

 

[Lisa]

I think Beastley would bite out of fear. He is not around a lot of people other then family. Fat Boy would fight just because he is a butt. My husband has trained both to protect me in the sense that if I'm in danger of being hurt, they will protect me. My husband has even been bit by Fat Boy when he raised his hand to me in a joking matter but Fat Boy was concerned for my safety because I was making loud noises. We once did have a "guard dog" and we were still robbed. We knew it was by someone who knew us because they knew the dogs vice. Oreo cookies, the crumbs were all over the house and he was laying like a stuffed pig when we came home to an empty house.

Your husband trained your dogs to protect you? How did he do that?

 

[Lisa]

Good point Oznog. Seems some here are of the opinion that ONLY specially trained dogs are capable/willing to guard and protect their homes. Dogs have been used as guardians since the beginning of time. I highly doubt these dogs were involved in protection sports. I did a lot of research on the AB before, during and after deciding on what type of dog to get for my family. One thing that attracted me to the AB is that they are "natural guardians" of home and family. Was I lied to? Would I have been better off by saving food costs and just getting a poodle?

What do you consider a "natural guardian"? What would the job description be in detail?

 

[Lisa]

I guess that's not really well defined. I guess some would say that a big 'ol dog barking at someone would be a deterrent in it's own right. I would guess that any large dog could do that. Are we talking about dogs that will indiscriminately attack anyone not in the family that comes in the house? Not to change the subject, but it's a known fact that houses with children's toys, bicycles etc. outside are the ones that thieves pass over. I don't know why. Must be that thieves don't want to take the chance of having to "deal" with a child should things go wrong.

That's the point I have been trying to make since the start of this thread. How can we argue anything if we aren't all on the same page? Words like "protect" and "guard" are subjective and open to interpretation. The more demanding the job description becomes, means less dogs will be capable of the task.

 

[Lisa]

Threads like this one make me laugh. So many speak out on things that they have no knowledge of. Give me a rolled up newspaper and I 'll show you how quickly your dog will run. It's easy for a dog to look tough behind a door or being held back when no real threat is being presented to them. Most dogs don't have it in them to protect. It's comical when you really think about it. How long have dogs been bred to have bite inhibition towards humans? How many threads are there about teaching a pup bite inhibition? Now people want to weigh in that somehow after being selected and taught not to bite that a certain set of circumstances will override all that.

It's a special dog that has the courage and character to be willing to stand toe to toe with a man. To think otherwise is foolish.

I agree Mike. I knew as soon as I saw the title of this thread that it would be the same old song and dance. This topic has been re- hashed over and over again over the years I have been a member here. The end result is always the same....a big argument based around people with no experience making statements derived on emotions and wishful thinking only. Some give examples but in pretty much every case the "bad guy" was scared off by a loud bark or intimidating looks only.

No is is saying that a dog needs formal training in order to protect their owner, but it's the training that will give you an idea how the dog will handle a variety of situations with varying levels of stress. Assuming your dog will protect because you think he loves you is foolish.

I always make a point to stay out of topics I have no knowledge of, or experience with, and for the most part I think others do too. But for some reason, (I am not sure why), when it comes to this topic, people who really don't know what they are talking about just can't seem to leave it alone?

 

[Lisa]

Same old same old, just different user names trying to argue about something they know nothing about. Same comments and rebuttals.

pballjunky, it's funny because your posts actually prove our point in a way..you say you don't know until it happens how your dog will react...YOU ARE RIGHT! That is why it is so foolish to assume a dog will "protect" you (whatever that means can't seem to get anyone to narrow down what they actually mean by that).

At least if you bring a dog out to training, week after week, expose it to different scenarios, stress it out to see how it handles it etc, you have a better idea. If a dog has trouble during a rehearsed scenario, they are going to have trouble if the real thing were to occur. Training serves 2 purposes, it can "fine tune" the behaviors of the dog in order to make it more effective and it can also expose weaknesses in dogs as well.

I will end this post with one last question...the same one that I always pull out when these discussions get to this point...

if any old dog will suffice, then why do people spend so much money importing dogs from established, proven lines of protection dogs? Sport trainers, pp trainers, police forces, etc paying in some cases, 10's of thousands of dollars for dogs? Why would someone bother going to the trouble to locate these dogs, spend top dollar for them then several hundred just to get them to them? People pay more money in shipping fees than most people pay to adopt a dog at a shelter. pbulljunky, please explain why people do this if a dog will protect us simply out of love and loyalty and all that other BS? Why not just adopt or buy a cheap backyard bred dog? Are these people spending this money stupid?

 

[Lisa]

It is true that Schutzhund for the most part is a "sport" . However your dog will only be as "sporty" as it's temperament and training allows. I could show you many Schutzhund titled dogs who would have no problem biting someone with no equipment and without hesitation.

Remember, when Max Von Stephanitz created "Schutzhund" over a century ago, it was not considered a "sport" but rather a breed suitability test for the German Shepherd Dog and when you take the word "Schutzhund" and translate it to English, it means "protection".

Generally speaking, the dogs were different then and so was the training. It has changed much over the years but there are still many dogs who will bite for real that are being trained in the "sport" and there are still some trainers who are promoting a more serious and powerful attitude in the dogs work. It really depends on the club. On the contrary, there are also some dogs that no matter how hard the trainer tries to make it a "game" that they still take it seriously...because that is their genetic predisposition due to a low defense threshold.

One of the top Schutzhund competitors in the US (has competed at the World level) is also a K9 officer and provides dogs to other police forces. Many dogs that are active police K9's have a Schutzhund background.

 

[Lisa]

That would be cool, Alison. What is the name of the club? Do they have a website?

 

[Lisa]

Alison, when you said "this area" I assumed you meant somewhere closer to where you are living. I knew that was Ron in that video you posted. I am familiar with him and have heard about his training styles. He actually judged Blaze and I at the FedAb trial in MI last year. Did you know he bred one of his bulldog bitches to Chris' Remy?

 

[Lisa]

Where is the emoticon for "pulling your hair out"? My god, why are people are so stubborn and close minded when it comes to discussing whether their pet will protect them? You can practically draw some people a picture but they still don't get it.

 

[Lisa]

This goes both ways

I am so close minded that I have spent thousands of dollars and thousands of hours trying to educate myself on many aspects of dogs. I have attended seminars put on by world class trainers. I have have been a member of 3 different training clubs and have visited many others. I do my best to surround myself with the most knowledgeable people I can so I can learn from them. I have visited clubs in several provinces and states. I currently travel over 2 hrs each way and across an international border so that I can train with one of the best personal protection trainers in the United States. I have seen him wash personal dogs of his that your average pet owner would be drooling over. I do NOT consider myself experienced by any means. The people who have been nice enough to mentor me over the years have forgotten more than I know. I may seem "experienced" here but we also have to consider the audience. Many of the members here are first time dog owners. Many of those are having tough time housebreaking their dogs, keeping their pups from chewing stuff and other basic "problems" like that. So naturally, when one of us comes on discussing protection work and posting videos etc, they are going to seem "experienced". Now with that being said, I would like to end my post with a question to pballjunky420....

What have YOU done to gain knowledge on protection/home guardians or any aspect of dogs for that matter?

 

[Lisa]

I think drive is separate from control. There are some dogs who have EXTREMELY high drive but because they are responsive to their handlers, control is not necessarily an issue. It's when you have a dog that has really high drive, that lacks clarity and can take a hard correction is when you run into problems. I also feel that when it comes to dogs of the latter example, BULLDOGS like that are the exception, not the rule. Over all bulldogs do not have the drive that your typical (working line) herder does. They also don't have the nerve, confidence, trainability, natural grips etc. Of course there are exceptions but I am talking in general terms here. Finding a bulldog that can do well in protection work (or even prey based sport training) can be very difficult which is why you don't see many handling bulldogs and many of the ones who have been fortunate enough to get one they were able to title have since moved onto herders in order to be more competitive.

As far as "too much drive" I think it depends on who you talk to and what drive you are talking about. I know quite a few people who do NOT like a dog that is over the top in prey drive. Not because of control but because often times these types of dogs tend to lack any real aggression. A lot of them are prey monsters who are out there playing a game and are all about the sleeve, tug, suit or whatever. Too much defense drive can be a problem too, especially if their threshold is low.

Personally,I would prefer to have a dog with a little too much (prey) drive than one with not enough then just try and balance things out with training. Dogs who have a lower prey drive are much tougher to start in bitework and require a VERY skilled trainer which many people simply don't have access to. The process is also slower with such dogs but if their nerve is sound can turn into good dogs with the right training.

Sometimes things aren't so black and white!

 

[Lisa]

LOL Trying to bite a non threatening person is hardly an indication of a dog that would protect you! Read the whole thread!