[forever_pit]

In my opinion most dogs do not have what it takes to neutralize a threat on their own. It is however true that 90% or more of the time a good threat display or just the site of that big dog barking through the window will deter someone with bad intentions. Why hassle with a dog if you don't have to?

Pit Bulls haven't really been bred for guardian work, so it doesn't make sense for it to be in them by nature. There are some lines that are perhaps more prone to guardian type behaviors but it seems to be because at some point someone decided they were going to select for that trait.

I'll break down what I think about my three dogs and their potential reactions. Keep in mind that all of my dogs have had some sort of protection training.

Dylan - He will definitely bark and put on a display if there is someone is outside the house. He sounds big and he's very vocal so I think his value is in being a potential deterrent. That said, I highly highly doubt that he would ever bite an intruder. I would be very surprised if he did.

Cairo - I believe this dog would bite someone though I can't say for sure since he has not been in a real threatening situation. There are a few reasons I think this dog will bite. First, he is pretty serious in his work and he continues to gain more power and aggression as he is reaching maturity. I'm really starting to notice that he is out to hurt the decoy not just play a game. The dog will go after someone with no equipment on as fast as he will go after someone in a suit, obviously the suit is a trigger for him since it is what he is trained on but by-and-large he responds to body language. Several police and military trainers and brokers have already offered me money for this dog because of the potential they see in him for "real" work.
NOTE: CAIRO IS NOT A PIT BULL. OR A BULLDOG OF ANY SORT. HE IS A MALINOIS.

Gigz - He is too young to tell, but if he turns into the dog I am hoping he will be then yes he will nail your butt for breaking into my house.

 

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idk. either i guess. i mean if the intruder has a gun, does it really matter if hes threatening or passive.

Yes. If the intruder is passive you may have control of the situation, you may not need the dog. Plus, do you want a dog who will just go after a passive person? I understand and appreciate the value of a dog that will bite a passive person when commanded, but on their own, no.

Plus, that person with a gun could TOTALLY kill your dog. In fact, a police K9 was stabbed to death by a perp just this week.

 

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My APBT Ava, long before she had any protection training while living the good life as a family pet had a live bite on an intruder. She would most certainly bite an intruder for real. I can have company over and she doesn't need to be put up, you just wouldn't want to try slipping in through a window or come barging through the door.

It's that Chinaman blood.

 

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I took passive as being still; not active.
IME a passive bite is one where you command your dog to bite a decoy sitting in a chair and providing no threat, movement, fight or anything to get the dog going. The dog bites because you told them to. Period.

 

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No, a growling dog does not make me piss my pants. At all. LOL.

Where are you located? If I send a decoy to come mess with you at your house or in your car are you prepared to see what he might be able to do to do your dog? You want to see what your dog is made of, test the thing.

 

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IME with unleashed dogs that are putting on a threat display, you can often chase them off with some vocalization and some aggressive type movements toward the dog. It's worked for me the vast majority of the time.

When do you think I am gonna get cornered by a dog? When I break into homes? LMAO!

 

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And your average burglar spends hours every week in a bite suit volunteering to be bitten by dogs??? Cause I do.

You have a very romanticized opinion of dogs in general in this aspect. If a trained dog is not necessarily going to engage a burglar, what makes you think an untrained dog is going to? There may be some with the natural character to do that, but they are the exception not the rule. By far.

 

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I wanted to add that even dogs who can do well in SchH will not be able to what the above dog is doing in this video.

Removing the equipment is a HUGE deal for most dogs and it takes a VERY good dog to be able to push on without the reassurance of the equipment.

That's gonna depend on the dog and its training.
There are trainers out there who work against equipment fixation. There are a number of dogs at my club who will climb over the equipment that they possess after a bite to go back after the helper.


You are right that removing the equipment can be an obstacle for dogs that are used to a bite sleeve or a suit. But that's why you also use things like hidden sleeves under sweatshirts. You can also work home break in scenarios and the like so the dog starts to learn to protect outside of the training field. But to say it will be an obstacle for all Sch dogs in particular is an over-generalization imo.

 

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Lisa,
The next time you are in this area there is a schutzhund club I want to show you. I think you would like it, it is def more old school and they are producing real dogs who happen to play in the sport (and are even competing at awdf this weekend).

 

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A dog's bark tells you about their mindset, from the tone to the measurement of the bark.
A high pitched bark is a dog that is operating in prey or is very excited about something. A deeper bark tends to be a little more defensive. I also like to pay attention to how my dogs are barking, is it just a hectic, non-measured type bark or is the dog almost barking to a beat.

That would be cool, Alison. What is the name of the club? Do they have a website?

To be honest, I'm not sure what the club name is or if they have a website. It's something I kind of stumbled into when it was suggested that I go up there to check them out for Gigz's foundation. That video you saw of Gigz - that's this club. The two training directors have been wildly successful with off breeds both nationally and internationally. Ron was actually the first to win the DVG Nationals with a Pit Bull.

I should probably note that the club is in MD, not NC. I have a big "area" that I stomp around in. :lol:

 

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Yeah I realized that I probably made it sound like a club in NC. :lol:
Sorry.

I know Ron bred his bitch Guns to Remi.

 

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Not all man-biters were culled, in fact many of them were bred heavily. Some of the dogs who put their teeth on their owners/handlers or other people are some of the most well known dogs today (even outside of the game dog circles). It is important to remember that biting someone outside of the pit is totally different from redirection inside the pit.

I've had the pleasure of seeing a few APBT that do manwork, and do it well. I wouldn't call them unstable or nervous by any means. Obviously the best dogs for the task have been bred for that in addition to or in place of other activities.

However, I don't think that the average dog (of any breed) has what it takes to truly defend and guard a home or its master. By that I mean that there are very few dogs that will engage and take a beating in an effort to defend what is "their's".

 

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I've seen some great videos from Troy, I'm not sure if he posts around here, but he trains APBT in protection work and does well with them.

Definitely not all biters are fear biters, it's just a warning for people so they can know the difference as there is a world of difference between a dog that bites anything out of fear, and one who protects justly.

I would say the APBT was never traditionally bred to guard though - it's not a traditional guarding dog. I am sure some lines may have been, but it was not the norm. I'm not a pit expert but I remember reading that most man-biters were culled. I've never read about how man-biters were heavily bred. If so, it must not have been the norm with the breed in general. Maybe in recent years (past 10+ yrs or so), as I've seen more and more people training with APBT's, but not in the far history of the breed.

Yes, it is common to read that all man-biters were culled. Thing is, if you know the actual history of the individual dogs and look at the peds you can figure out where the man-biters have been bred.
Chinaman is just one example.

I am not arguing that APBT are great guard dogs or that some or maybe even most man-biters were not put down. I'm simply saying that the belief that ALL man biters were put down is a myth.

 

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I admit I know little about APBT's, but definitely learning more. I think the only well known line I can name off the top of my head are Colby pits, which were even used in some OEB breedings. A friend of mine has an OEB with Colby blood, insane drive on that dog. It's the oldest and best dog he owns.

I have heard good things about Colby dogs. Have not had the pleasure of seeing one working in any capacity in person though.

 

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And of course there is an issue with having too much drive in some of them too.. harder to control.

And that is where you should question a trainer. Too much drive?? LOL!!

APBTs and Bulldogs are not used as often because they are not as good. Period. The odd dog may be equal to or better, but by and large they are mediocre at best. You want to compete? Get a dog who has been bred for this stuff for hundreds of years.

And luckysarah is right, bulldogs need/should be trained differently. They deal with things differently and don't necessarily have the drive to carry them through some of the things herders need to go through.

 

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I'm kind of confused by your post. You come across in some posts as though you are someone who does train, but I question how much exposure you've had. I know many many many trainers, in the AB/Mal/bandog world.... many who I am close friends with, and many of their dogs I have seen work in person. It's totally possible to have a dog that has too much drive - in that case you really have to tone them down, to get proper control out of them. You want BALANCED drives from a good working dog. A dog that is 200% overkill drive, is just so much harder to control and too sensitive, harder to out, and too dirty. OB is waaaaaaaaaay harder with them. I take it simply you have not experienced this type of dog, if you are laughing at me. But yes it is a problem in some of these dogs. Definitely an easier problem than having to build up a dog's drive that doesn't have it to begin with.

That is my point. I'd much much rather have to break a dog down than to build one up. I won't own another dog that I have to build drive in. Out of my three dogs, I have two that are high drive; my Malinois and my AB pup.

I train a lot and I travel all over the country to do it. I work with people who have achieved international levels of success. Trust me, I have seen and worked dogs with the level of drive you are talking about. I have also seen these dogs that have good OB, do outs and guards, and be controlled well. Not all dogs with this level of drive are sensitive either.