Bulldog Breeds Forums banner
141 - 160 of 206 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,067 Posts
I was reading some articles about AB's vs GSD's in SchH and PP, and the article pretty much stated that AB's and bulldogs need to be trained differently, they are not as biddable but more of an independent thinker when compared to herders.

So traditional training methods that may work perfectly for herders are not really the ideal way to train a bulldog, they just think differently.

Thoughts?

I have found Horse VERY easy to train but of course most puppies are, lets see how I feel about it in a few more months lol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,539 Posts
I was reading some articles about AB's vs GSD's in SchH and PP, and the article pretty much stated that AB's and bulldogs need to be trained differently, they are not as biddable but more of an independent thinker when compared to herders.

So traditional training methods that may work perfectly for herders are not really the ideal way to train a bulldog, they just think differently.

Thoughts?

I have found Horse VERY easy to train but of course most puppies are, lets see how I feel about it in a few more months lol.
I still think the "Bull" means bull headed, out of all the dogs I have had Zeus is by far the most stubborn. Don't get me wrong, I find he is very intelligent and I admire the way he thinks for himself. He will look for any opportunity to suit himself just as long as he feels his chances are high of getting away with it :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,067 Posts
But what we are labeling as stubborn, is it really a more intelligent dog?
A dog who thinks for themselves instead of being more biddable then some breeds.

I am not saying a biddable dog is not a good dog, certainly they are easier to train but if I wanted a livestock or home guardian without any training I certainly would want an independent thinker who is capable of making choices when I am not there to give commands.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,539 Posts
But what we are labeling as stubborn, is it really a more intelligent dog?
A dog who thinks for themselves instead of being more biddable then some breeds.

I am not saying a biddable dog is not a good dog, certainly they are easier to train but if I wanted a livestock or home guardian without any training I certainly would want an independent thinker who is capable of making choices when I am not there to give commands.
You are getting way to deep for my tired brain ;) but I know what you mean. Zeus is crafty, If I forget to put the eye and hook on the cat's room he waits until I go around the corner then runs in the room and eats the cat's food. If I leave something tasty on the kitchen counter he will wait until I go to use the washroom before helping himself. He always steals my spot on the couch when I leave the room. He knows this behavior is unacceptable and punishable but he loves to test me. Like I said earlier (on topic), I have know idea how he would react in a protective nature if I wasn't present or not. I have never invited someone in my home and worried about him acting out. He is sometimes hesitant but after a few minutes he will drop a toy by their feet as to say "look someone new to play with". He seems to know that "come on in" means the person is welcome, I don't have any idea how he would react if someone made there way in forcefully.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,422 Posts
Discussion Starter · #147 ·
So I have a question. In the ATTS there is the Self Protective/Agressive Behavior section where one of the objectives is to test for protective behavior. It says that in Subtest 10 where the stranger is being threatening, a lunge is checked against the breed. If a SchH trained GSD was to lunge, it would be fine, however if an untrained Siberian Husky did, it may fail. My question is, if my untrained pit bull were to lunge, would that be acceptable? Is it a breed standard according to them?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,140 Posts
And of course there is an issue with having too much drive in some of them too.. harder to control.
And that is where you should question a trainer. Too much drive?? LOL!!

APBTs and Bulldogs are not used as often because they are not as good. Period. The odd dog may be equal to or better, but by and large they are mediocre at best. You want to compete? Get a dog who has been bred for this stuff for hundreds of years.

And luckysarah is right, bulldogs need/should be trained differently. They deal with things differently and don't necessarily have the drive to carry them through some of the things herders need to go through.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,619 Posts
murphysmommy when rufus and i took the atts test at the threatening stranger part rufus wagged his tail at the guy at each stage... the tester at that area gave him a low score, and told me that he should have showed some sort of protection .. i argued with the 3 main testers on this area, and told them this breed is NOT suppossed to show aggression to humans if bred properly, yet they still argued with me.. they even told me that he should have failed since he didnt show any protectiveness but they passed him cause his other scores were high .. i think with the atts test it really depends on if the testers are knowledgable in the breeds ...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,064 Posts
And that is where you should question a trainer. Too much drive?? LOL!!
I'm kind of confused by your post. You come across in some posts as though you are someone who does train, but I question how much exposure you've had. I know many many many trainers, in the AB/Mal/bandog world.... many who I am close friends with, and many of their dogs I have seen work in person. It's totally possible to have a dog that has too much drive - in that case you really have to tone them down, to get proper control out of them. You want BALANCED drives from a good working dog. A dog that is 200% overkill drive, is just so much harder to control and too sensitive, harder to out, and too dirty. OB is waaaaaaaaaay harder with them. I take it simply you have not experienced this type of dog, if you are laughing at me. But yes it is a problem in some of these dogs. Definitely an easier problem than having to build up a dog's drive that doesn't have it to begin with.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,140 Posts
I'm kind of confused by your post. You come across in some posts as though you are someone who does train, but I question how much exposure you've had. I know many many many trainers, in the AB/Mal/bandog world.... many who I am close friends with, and many of their dogs I have seen work in person. It's totally possible to have a dog that has too much drive - in that case you really have to tone them down, to get proper control out of them. You want BALANCED drives from a good working dog. A dog that is 200% overkill drive, is just so much harder to control and too sensitive, harder to out, and too dirty. OB is waaaaaaaaaay harder with them. I take it simply you have not experienced this type of dog, if you are laughing at me. But yes it is a problem in some of these dogs. Definitely an easier problem than having to build up a dog's drive that doesn't have it to begin with.
That is my point. I'd much much rather have to break a dog down than to build one up. I won't own another dog that I have to build drive in. Out of my three dogs, I have two that are high drive; my Malinois and my AB pup.

I train a lot and I travel all over the country to do it. I work with people who have achieved international levels of success. Trust me, I have seen and worked dogs with the level of drive you are talking about. I have also seen these dogs that have good OB, do outs and guards, and be controlled well. Not all dogs with this level of drive are sensitive either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,671 Posts
I think drive is separate from control. There are some dogs who have EXTREMELY high drive but because they are responsive to their handlers, control is not necessarily an issue. It's when you have a dog that has really high drive, that lacks clarity and can take a hard correction is when you run into problems. I also feel that when it comes to dogs of the latter example, BULLDOGS like that are the exception, not the rule. Over all bulldogs do not have the drive that your typical (working line) herder does. They also don't have the nerve, confidence, trainability, natural grips etc. Of course there are exceptions but I am talking in general terms here. Finding a bulldog that can do well in protection work (or even prey based sport training) can be very difficult which is why you don't see many handling bulldogs and many of the ones who have been fortunate enough to get one they were able to title have since moved onto herders in order to be more competitive.

As far as "too much drive" I think it depends on who you talk to and what drive you are talking about. I know quite a few people who do NOT like a dog that is over the top in prey drive. Not because of control but because often times these types of dogs tend to lack any real aggression. A lot of them are prey monsters who are out there playing a game and are all about the sleeve, tug, suit or whatever. Too much defense drive can be a problem too, especially if their threshold is low.

Personally,I would prefer to have a dog with a little too much (prey) drive than one with not enough then just try and balance things out with training. Dogs who have a lower prey drive are much tougher to start in bitework and require a VERY skilled trainer which many people simply don't have access to. The process is also slower with such dogs but if their nerve is sound can turn into good dogs with the right training.

Sometimes things aren't so black and white!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
131 Posts
I think my AB would defend our home. My father in law walked in without knocking and she kept him at the door. He wouldn't move. If we are at the doorand welcome the person, she is the sweetest girl. If I was in danger, I have NO doubt in my mind that she would attack to defend me. She is very protective but at the same time, if I tell her to leave it alone, she relaxes and is very friendly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,422 Posts
Discussion Starter · #155 ·
I think my AB would defend our home. My father in law walked in without knocking and she kept him at the door. He wouldn't move. If we are at the doorand welcome the person, she is the sweetest girl. If I was in danger, I have NO doubt in my mind that she would attack to defend me. She is very protective but at the same time, if I tell her to leave it alone, she relaxes and is very friendly.
Did she bite him? Or was she just barking at him? My dogs would do the same thing. Doesn't mean for one second she would attack an intruder. Have you read this entire thread?
 

·
Legend
Joined
·
5,197 Posts
I think my AB would defend our home. My father in law walked in without knocking and she kept him at the door. He wouldn't move. If we are at the doorand welcome the person, she is the sweetest girl. If I was in danger, I have NO doubt in my mind that she would attack to defend me. She is very protective but at the same time, if I tell her to leave it alone, she relaxes and is very friendly.
It's possible. But keep in mind there is a huge difference in your FIL standing inside your door and a full on assault by an intruder.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
131 Posts
Did she bite him? Or was she just barking at him? My dogs would do the same thing. Doesn't mean for one second she would attack an intruder. Have you read this entire thread?
She didn't bite him but she snapped at him. She let him know he wasn't welcome. Once I came to the door she was ok.
No I didn't read the whole thread, I was just answering the original question.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,746 Posts
You're right there is a big difference between the two but I think she would defend us.
Then test it. Find a trainer/club and set up a test to see. While you're at it video it and post it up. I for one would love to see a "natural protector" get their groove on.

I spend a great deal of money, time, and effort training/testing my dogs for the very thing that so many say their dogs do naturally. How is it that my keen eye just hasn't been able to see these naturals. I could stand to save that money, time, and effort.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
131 Posts
Then test it. Find a trainer/club and set up a test to see. While you're at it video it and post it up. I for one would love to see a "natural protector" get their groove on.

I spend a great deal of money, time, and effort training/testing my dogs for the very thing that so many say their dogs do naturally. How is it that my keen eye just hasn't been able to see these naturals. I could stand to save that money, time, and effort.
Good idea but I live in a small community and we don't have many resources here. I will look into it and see what I can find out.
 
141 - 160 of 206 Posts
Top