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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok so hello everyone… I’m a long time reader first time poster. I’d really appreciate any advice, help, tips, or anything any of you guys could provide to help with with this ongoing problem I’ve been dealing with. I have an 8 year old 60lbs pit bull femaleand an 18 month old 85lb male Olde English Bulldog. Both have been obedience trained professionally and listen rather well, when they aren’t in a "rage" or "red zone".

The pitt has always been aggressive toward other females, but never to males until now. She has gotten along and lived with male (pitbulls) in the past. The OEB has been slightly dog aggressive since he was a puppy, but always got along with my female. Currently they want to attack on-site.

This all started right after my wife and I got back from our honeymoon. They had minor spats prior to that but nothing serious. At first we thought it was the stress from being kenneled for 10 days. So we put them into obedience training and worked with them daily (in addition to a 30 minute for each dog). Things were fine for about 5 weeks and then we decided to sell our house so we could get out of our townhouse, and get the dogs into a house with a big yard and more room to be separate. As realtors need easy access to the house, we crated them both separately in the garage. For the OEB this wasn’t a problemn as he has always been crated, but the pitt hadn’t been crated since she was a puppy. As soon as we started crating them is when it got REAL bad. Now we crate one in the house(female) and one in the garage(male) so they can’t stare at each other during the day, thinking that might have been building animosity, unfortunately they still try to eat each other every chance they get.

The problem is that they cannot even be in the same room without fighting or attempting to fight. Anytime they make eye contact they immediately attack each other. They both will equally provoke the fight, one time one will give a little growl, the next time the other will, but a little growl is all it takes for them to go into a rage. It’s become so that my life revolves around keeping the dogs separate. Currently they are never together in the house without being chained(stay in place kit) to a door, chair, couch or something so that if they decide to get into it they can’t get at each other. We started keeping them separate after the 3rd 200 dollar vet bill. The OEB definitely fights to kill, he gets ahold of her neck and will not release for anything, I physically need to get my hands in his mouth and pry his jaw open. I’m a pretty big guy and it takes all my strength. Whenever the OEB gets into a rage I pin him down on his back in a submissive position and hold him there. We putt the pitt in a submissive position as well but she will calm down on her own, while she does instigate the fights sometime the male OEB is the attacher more, also he will continue to attempt to attack for awhile.

I’ve been around aggressive dogs my entire life, but have never had a problem like this especially between a male/female pair. We got the OEB because he was suppose to more docile and "happy".

At this point its gotten so bad that I’m not sure what else to do aside from muzzling them both. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to find a wire basket muzzle that will fit his snout as it is only 2 inches long and like 14 -15 inches around. I realize he is reaching that age where he wants to be alpha dog in the house, I just don’t think my female is gonna allow that, as she has an alpha personality toward other (previously only female)dogs as well, having said this the males that she did live with were not "alpha" personality males. They are both fixed, and the OEB actually got MORE aggressive after he was neutered (@ 6months). Also, while he is obedience trained and does listen on leash and in the the house for the most part he has always been an independant male. He doesn't crave attention, and will walk away from you while you try to praise him, and can seem very "aloof". The female pitt on the other hand is your typical, wants to be with you, loves attention dog.

So as I know a lot of you have a lot of dogs, I would appreciate any advice anyone who has ever been in this situation could provide. Once our townhouse sells and we get into a house with a yard, and I can build some pens I don’t think this will be as bad of a problem as it will be easier to keep them separate, however in the short term its brutal. My wife is scared to be alone with them because she doesn’t think she could stop them if they did get into it and we have no idea how long its gonna take to sell the house.
 

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That sucks!!!

Crate and Rotate is probably your only option. Don't allow them to see each other, and definately don't let them near each other. I don't think muzzling will work, cause they will still try and kill each other with the muzzle on.

I would get a breaking bar of some sort.
 

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Well I don't have any advice for you.... I only have one dog. Sounds like you do have a dominance problem. I'm not sure how you feel about the dog whisperer and his techniques, but he had an episode that dealt with the same probelm you are describing. The dogs were inseperatable and then all of a sudden things went wrong and they always tried to go after each other. and acutally it was with EB's. Maybe you could look on his website and they will have a video of the episode (it wasn't that long ago) and that might be able to help you with some tips?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Kate said:
Well I don't have any advice for you.... I only have one dog. Sounds like you do have a dominance problem. I'm not sure how you feel about the dog whisperer and his techniques, but he had an episode that dealt with the same probelm you are describing. The dogs were inseperatable and then all of a sudden things went wrong and they always tried to go after each other. and acutally it was with EB's. Maybe you could look on his website and they will have a video of the episode (it wasn't that long ago) and that might be able to help you with some tips?
I actually saw that episode on Sunday. I've actually been debating sending him a video. The thing is that video was dealing with dogs that were maybe 40-50lbs tops. He was able to get them into submissive positions next to each other on his own. My dogs are larger than that, and while we have been able to get them on their back/side its not an easy task when they are in a red zone as they thrash and you literally need to get on top of them to pin them down.

i was thinking that if they are muzzled and get into it:

A: they can't really hurt each other
B: due to A: they might get discouraged from fighting.. not sure though.[/img]
 

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Bremner53 said:
That sucks!!!

Crate and Rotate is probably your only option. Don't allow them to see each other, and definately don't let them near each other. I don't think muzzling will work, cause they will still try and kill each other with the muzzle on.

I would get a breaking bar of some sort.
Exactly! Ditto for me.

~S
 

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halo said:
I have never seen a nutered dog get worse it takes away the testrone levels that can make them even more agressive. That to me is strange I don't have any advise on this one. except like others said crate and rotate
My friend's AB was fixed, and he got worse afterward, after about age 4, he pretty much hated all other dogs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Leeann.Bella.Remy said:
Were the two dogs allowed to interact with each other while they were kennelled for those 10 days?
I'm not sure, we did not have them kenneled together(in the same pen) but I do think their kennels next to, or near by each other.

I really do not want to get rid of my male, and I won't get rid of the female as she has been with me for so long. I have lots of selfish reasons for not wanting to get rid of him, but it really comes down to not wanting to send him anywhere where I don't know how he will be handled/treated. Everyone I know who loves dogs, has dogs. He obviously has a dog aggression problem. So then I'm left with putting an ad in the paper or on the internet where you really don't know what kinda person is gonna take your dog. You can ask all the questions you want, but if someone knows what you want to hear thats what they are gonna tell you.
I am still debating just keeping them separate until I can get into a new house where it will be alot easier to keep them apart.

Its odd because it happened so fast, one day they were fine and then all of sudden they can't stand each other. I was hoping as the female got older her dominance would die down a little, that hasn't been the case thus far though.

The male was never aggressive or destructive before he got fixed. He had a MAJOR humping problem but that was it.. he would mount any and everything.. After he got fixed he got VERY dog aggressive and became destructive (chewing and tearing stuff apart) almost immediately.
 

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Chris said:
Leeann.Bella.Remy said:
Were the two dogs allowed to interact with each other while they were kennelled for those 10 days?
I'm not sure, we did not have them kenneled together(in the same pen) but I do think their kennels next to, or near by each other.
Did you go through a re-introduction period with them when you returned home? I've heard/read that even when dogs are physically apart from each other (that includes being in crates side-by-side) for even just 24 hours that they should be "re-introduced" like they're meeting for the first time (on neutral territory, etc.) because inproper re-intros can often lead to the dogs fighting later on. I've never experienced this first-hand, but I've heard this advice very frequently.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Leeann.Bella.Remy said:
Chris said:
Leeann.Bella.Remy said:
Were the two dogs allowed to interact with each other while they were kennelled for those 10 days?
I'm not sure, we did not have them kenneled together(in the same pen) but I do think their kennels next to, or near by each other.
Did you go through a re-introduction period with them when you returned home? I've heard/read that even when dogs are physically apart from each other (that includes being in crates side-by-side) for even just 24 hours that they should be "re-introduced" like they're meeting for the first time (on neutral territory, etc.) because inproper re-intros can often lead to the dogs fighting later on. I've never experienced this first-hand, but I've heard this advice very frequently.


Actually I did not, they had been kenneled together previously.. albeit for only a weekend. They seemed fine when we picked them up, however it could be the problem.
 

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APBTs were NEVER EVER bred to be pack animals. If one understands & accepts their history, then one understands why dog aggression is just a trait with the breed. It does not make them bad, it does not make them worse than any other breed, it only makes them what they are & it's the owner's responsiblity to deal with it in an appropriate manner.

That said, none of the bully breeds were bred for their pack mentality. Dog aggression runs in ALL of them & that's just the way it is. No one, & I repeat no on, can train dog aggression out of a dog. When wanting to have more than one bully breed in a home, one must be prepared for the fact that chances are, they are NOT going to get along perfectly whether it be right from the start or 5 years down the road. Dogs mature at different ages--meaning they don't all turn on at the same time, thereby one cannot state confidently that their 1 1/2 year old is completely dog friendly & will remain so. It's just a fact of these breeds.

As for the muzzle idea, it's a horrible one. First, when you take away that defense (the teeth), then the dogs will become extremely defensive & will fight even harder this time in a panic mode. And whn 1 is able to get his muzzle ripped off & begin using his mouth & teeth while the other is still muzzled, well, you will have a dead dog on your hands.

My suggestion again is to crate & rotate your animals & enjoy the fact that they were bred for human companionship (not for another dog's companionship). Do not try & force them to go against their nature as all in the picture will lose.
 

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Banterbull said:
My friend's AB was fixed, and he got worse afterward, after about age 4, he pretty much hated all other dogs.
Really , you learn something new all the time here I really have never see or heard of any till now. I was always told it calms them down a bit on the agression. Like I said you learn something new everyday and its good to be aware of these things Thank You for info
 

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Do you have a good friend or family member to loan the dog out for a while. I saw this happening with my male Staffy and my female bulldog. When he was a pup it was all good as he matured it changed. Now he lives at my Nanny's house and only comes for visits.
A friend of mine had this problem with 3 pits he kept in a yard. One day he came to work in the morning to 60 stitches and a huge vet bill. AFTER THE DOG RECOVERED .It fought again and lost its life. I told him put the other dog down, once it's killed it will always want blood. Of course no one listens. Next the dog dug under the fence and attacked the kid next door. Somehow he was able to prove that the kid provoked the dog and avoid serious repercussions. But the dog was then put down. In the final analysis he’s down to one dog. Albeit it could have been a lot easier path.
 

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I will 3rd what Miakoda said. Muzzling is definitely not the answer..it only frustrates them even more ( not to mention I have yet to see a muzzle a bully couldn't get off). Your only option at this point is to crate and rotate...I have to do it myself with 4 bullies in the house. Sure it's a pain to do, and you feel bad you can't all be cuddled up together at the same time, but if it saves your dog's lives, it's well worth it in the long run.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I had pretty much come to grips with the idea of keeping the dogs separate from this point forward. Again, it will be alot easier when I get into a house with more room. It does suck, however its better than the alternative. We'll see how it goes, will keep everyone posted.
 
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