[Lisa]

Sorry, but you should not be buying a bulldog with the purpose of breeding. You say it will be your first bulldog? What type of bulldog? If you have never owned one before how will you even know what to look for when looking for a puppy or even after once your pup matures? My suggestion is to do more research....then once you have a better understanding of what to look for and what breeders are producing nice bulldogs, then obtain one. If its an AB you have to understand that it is a working breed first and formost and it takes alot of time and dedication to understand what traits to look for in an AB. Then after you have the dog spend time with it, train it, work it,health test, see what it is made of. Why are you in such a rush to breed? What do you feel you will be able to contribute to the breed you want to reproduce?? Dogs of any breed that possess all the traits that would make it a breed worthy animal are few and far between and if you think otherwise you have not done your homework. If you obtain a puppy with the purpose of breeding and do all the right things to determine if the dog should be bred or not you more than likely will be disappointed. Your goal in obtaining a puppy should not be to breed but rather a learning experience first and formost. Most dogs are not worthy of being bred plain and simple. I don't care if it is "registered" and cost you $1000 that means nothing.

 

[Lisa]

You are right, everyone does have to start somewhere, but it doesn't have to be by breeding the first dog(s) that come onto their yards. Try hitting some conformation shows, agility trials, obedience competitions. Talk to people who are out there competing with their bullies and doing well. Talk to reputable breeders about what health testing should be done prior. Find out what the ideal temperament of the EB should be. Learn about genetics and the different methods of breeding..linebreeding, inbreeding, outcrossing. Understand COI. If you are confused by those terms you are clearly not ready to breed. Maybe by getting out and mingling with established, well respected breeders you will see that only a small majoirty of dogs really do have what it takes to be a breed worthy animal. Those are the people you should be looking to mentor you, not people on a forum where 99% of them just own their dogs as companions and don't compete with them. I wouldn't say there are too many experts on this forum..lol. Experts on pet owning maybe, but not experts on breeding. Anyone can take 2 dogs and put them together to produce puppies, its the ones who have spent countless hours and countless amounts of $$$ learning about their breed of choice and competing with them, washing out dogs that don't cut it, and having them judged by a second party that makes them reputable breeders. Remember, just because you plan on treating your new addition well by giving it a good home doesn't necesarily mean you should breed it. Can you imagine if everyone in the world had that attitude? The shelters are full enough already. You didn't answer the question as to why you want to reproduce a breed of dog you have no experience with? My guess is its the $$ or why else would anyone be in such a rush?

BTW if you plan to ignore the advice and guidance you asked for, and rush into breeding anyways, be prepared to fork out $$$ for artifical insemination and c sections..not to mention, be prepared to have people come back at you if the puppies you produce turn out dysplastic , full of allergies, etc.

It's your choice, you can do it right by first finding a mentor so you can better understand what makes a good EB or you can take the other route and just follow the lead of all the other backyard breeders. Personally, no amount of $$$, could ever convince me to breed dogs that had not been proven to be good examples of their breed. I have morals and don't feel the need to use my dogs to pad my pockets. There are enough mediocre, pet quality animals out there already.

Educate yourself, find a good dog, compete with it in every avenue possible, then maybe, if you are extrmemely lucky, you may have one that is good enough to breed, but don't count on it, those dogs are gems.

 

[Lisa]

Well, some people are pretty negative around here as far as new breeders. My wife and I plan on breeding our ABs in 1.5 years. My wife is working on getting her vet tech degree and is going take some classes on breeding dogs specifically. Flame me if you will. I have had Dobies, AmStaff, and hounds. I have helped my relatives at their hound and terrier kennels when I was growing up. I will be learning as much as humanly possible in the next year and if I believe that I can't handle it I won't breed my dogs. I want to breed them because they are the most impressive breed I have seen. I want to produce the most beautiful dogs possible with good temperament, bone structure, athleticism, and drive. When we used to tree ***** with our hounds you would quickly realize if your breeding attempts were productive and what type of dog you had. You needed different types of hounds to fit the hunting bill. I learned that some dogs have a specific working purpose. Also, I have a great friend that currently breeds ABs whom I am getting my pups from that will gladly help me when I ask. If new breeders didn't appear to replace breeders who retire and decide to leave the profession the breed could expire. That almost happened to ABs before in their history. Thanks to a few people that did not happen. There are a number of extinct dogs out there by the way.

Well there are reasons people on this board are negative about new breeders. Maybe because everyone who gets a dog seems to want to breed it, like its the latest fad!! Maybe people get upset because they have seen many wonderful working breeds be ruined by pet owners who think that breeding their dogs is a good idea but in reality they haven't got a clue as to what to look for when judging proper working temperament. Dogs beocming extinct?? I don't think you need to worry about that happening. Have you been to any shelters lately? You refer to breeding as a profession, anyone who breeds dogs as a source of income is not a reputable breeder! Reputable breeders have real jobs and don't need to rely on their dogs to pay the bills!

Led, Since you put yourself out there, please allow me to ask you a few questions.

Isn't your one AB only 4 months and the other only like 8 weeks and not even in your possession? How can you possibly know at this point that those 2 puppies are going to mature into breed worthy animals? How can you have already made the decision you are going to breed these 2 animals? If you breed them in 1.5 years that would make both dogs under 2 yrs old when you breed them. Isn't that kind of young?? It's not even old enough for a hip certification!!!!

Do you know what NCL is and how to go about testing for it? Are you going to test your dogs for this prior to breeding?

You say you want to produce dogs with good "altheticism, good structure, good temperament, and drive." How will you test for these abilities and traits? Please be specific. Will you have your dogs judged by a second party?

How will you test for good nerve and courage since these are traits the AB should possess? Again, please be specific.

Where does a person go to take a class on dog breeding?

You say your friend breeds AB's. What does he do to test his animals? Working ability? Temperament? Conformation? Health? Or is he just another backyard breeder with a fancy website?

I have read many of your previous posts on this forum and most of them include comments about how "sweet" and how "big" or how "muscular" various dogs are and how you wished you would have gotten a puppy out of this one dog you thought was so "sweet". I have not read one post from you that mentioned anything about nerve, drive, or courage and you want to breed? You obviously will have no idea what you are looking at judging from your previous posts. Shouldn't there be other reasons you would interested in a pup out of a certain dog, after all we are talking about a working breed here and not something bred specifically as a companion animal.

Some comments made by LED:

I definitely wouldn't have minded a pup out of Belle. She is the sweetest dog I have ever been around

I looked at Dogos too before along with a few other dogs. They look great, but I ended up leaning towards the ABs. I thought the ABs look a little more muscualar. And, you have a variety of color available.

Our pup Iceman is the odd eyed pup playing with the tennis ball in the pics. Hope you like the little studmuffin.

I really love Belle, she is so beautiful and so laid back. She is incredible.

Do these sound like the comments that should be made by a breeder of working dogs?

 

[Lisa]

NCL - Canine Neuronal Ceroid Lipofuscinosis...so you aren't the only one that knows.

Are you aware that a dog need not be affected by it, to produce it?

I will make a guess that you either have a kennel and don't want competition or you want a kennel but can't handle the work it entails.

Nope. You see, my goal in life isn't to just breed dogs. Rather, it's to be able to find dogs good enough that I feel are worthy of it, work them, and have them in my yard. Breeding is an afterthought and would only be done if I wanted something from a litter myself.

There are dog breeds that have become extinct.

I do realize that, but the AB isn't one of them. If you don't believe me, check out petfinder.

Where can you take a class on dog breeding? It is called college classes.

Really? That's interesting! I would love to take such a course! Is it only available at certain colleges or do you know of several that offer it? I wonder if it is offered in Canada? I would love to take it. Can you recommend any good books on canine genetics? I have been wanting to order some but am leary about which ones are good.

And, where does it say in the AB standard that a dog should be anit-social to people???? Is that just your requirement?
Disposition: Alert, outgoing and friendly with a self-assured attitude. Some aloofness with strangers and assertiveness toward other dogs is not considered a fault.
Doesn't say they can't be people dogs. They are used in protection work and many people expect them to protect their families. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
Just because I love my dogs and think they are sweet doesn't mean they are not good ABs. Do you have to be mean to dogs before they are worthy of your praise??

Ok, this is where you lose me and where it clearly shows your lack of understanding when it comes to proper working temperament. When did I ever say an AB should be anti social and not people loving dogs? You have me so confused. If you knew me at all, you would know that I prefer an outgoing, friendly dog that can be taken in public..petted and enjoed by people of all ages. If ever I owned a dog not capable of being stable with people it would find its self 6 feet under very quickly. If you ask other working dog poeple they will tell you the same. A working dog (be it wieght pull , personal protection, sport dog, whatever) needs to be stable around people. My whole point was not that I like mean dogs, (you could not be further from the truth) but rather, have dogs with nerve and courage to protect their families or go after a wild hog. Doesn't mean they can't be loving, family pets. Where are you getting that from? You seem to have this horrible mis conception that protection dogs are some unstable, wild monsters? Speaking of temperament, I am still curious to know how you are going to test for nerve and courage?

LED, when you make comments that you have, then mention breeding, be prepared for questions. Let me give you a bit of advice. The next time you find a dog forum, instead of coming on saying you have 2 puppies you are wanting to breed, instead say you have 2 puppies that you plan on working and testing to see what they are made of. You will get alot more respect. Trust me.

 

[Lisa]

Anyway, the wife thought your posts were very negative and antagonistic also.

Of course she did! I called you out and made you look silly. You don't even understand what proper working temprament is, (you make that VERY obvious) and you want to breed what is supposed to be working dogs!! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: If you made the remarks on a working dog forum that you made here, you would be laughed right off and thats a fact. I think you have a long way to go before you should even be thinking about breeding!!! If you can't bear to wait and educate yourself (and sorry to break it to ya, but its gonna take more than 1.5 years), then maybe you should think of breeding lap dogs and leave the working dogs alone!

 

[Lisa]

She thinks you have a lot of pent up frustration

You got that right...and you can thank all the wannabe breeders coming to this site wanting to breed their unproven pets.

And, she knows how much I hit the books on the subject. She knows how much I have stored away upstairs about dogs

Boy, you sure wouldn't know that judging from your posts......

quote from LED

Do you have to be mean to dogs before they are worthy of your praise??

Again, where are you getting this from? What makes you think I am mean to my dogs or like mean dogs? Why can't you answer that?

But, she has drive and she would work your dog into the ground at 7 years old. Pound for pound I would bet on her. This breeder believes that DRIVE is very important in his dogs and they have it and they will perform when it is asked of them.

Whatever...why can't you answer my question as to how you would test the NERVE of your dogs? Do you think that the only prerequisite for a good working dog is drive? If you do, you are sadly mistaken. What about making the dog work under control and enviornemntal pressue? Do you know how many dogs who appear to be great working dogs fall apart when they are asked to do that same job while under strict obedience or how many dogs will quit simply because someone threw a jug of rocks at them? Do you understand how much STRESS can affect a dog and how many dogs when confronted by it go into avoidance? My guess is you don't. What type of "work" has your friends dog done? How advanced? How about some pictures or video of this great working dog?

Believe it or not working dogs CAN BE part of a family. They can love kids. They can love grandparents. They can love people in general after being introduced to strangers by the dominant pack leader in their life.
You fail to recognize things.

No, YOU are the one who fails to recognize things. You have no clue or understanding about proper working temperament: nerve, drives (and notice I have drives in plural because there is more than one), courage, hardness, thresholds. etc. Do you honestly think that I don't think a working dog can make a good family pet? Did you not read my last post?

litter will NOT be all the same.

No sh*t, sherlock!

It sounds like you believe you could produce perfect litters with your massive amounts of experience and knowledge.

No I don't. If I did wouldn't I already be breeding?

I would NEVER sell a dog to you because you probably beat your dogs if they disappoint you.

Is this what you have to stoop to? Making things up because you can't have an intelligent debate because you have been questioned and your lack of understanding of proper working temperament has been exposed? Do you really think I would waste my $$$ on your unproven pets anyways?

It also comes down my ability to learn. I have that ability. How many college degrees do you have? I have two. A double major BA and an Associates in Mechanical Engineering. I have the ability to learn. I have proven that time and again. Do you?

Big Deal! I have a college degree in Law and Security so what? Maybe if you have such a great ability to learn, maybe you should join a working dog club and some working dog forums , where you can learn about what makes a working dog before you go ahead and try and breed them. Funny I don't see you on any working dog boards but yet you want to breed working dogs? I thought you wanted to learn?

Here are some pics of my mean, anti social dogs who make horrible family pets. :roll:

My mother and grandmother really look terrified don't they?

My father in law really looks scared does't he?

Mother in law..shaking in her boots...

Bonding time with my hubby

What am I doing taking my mean, anti social dogs out to a public place??

So mean and anti social, she lets a stranger check her bite in the conformation ring.....

Enjoying a family camping trip in a public campground.

My dogs at work...YES they can be a pet and working dog..Get it now!!

showing he can take a stick hit and still stay on the man..good NERVE

Notice the full mouth bite...shows commitment..something you probably don't know about...and she's only 10 months old in the pics.

 

[Lisa]

Ok, I walked away from this thread to collect my thoughts and all I can say is WOW. Rachel, what are you thinking? You come on here with ridiculous statements which clearly show your lack of understanding regarding dogs and breeding yet you want to be applauded for wanting to breed? Unbeleivable.

A few quotes by Rachel Casey:

What I don't understand is why do you have to buy a puppy to breed that is show bound. But if you ask me I think that is cruel.

What are you talking about? First of all no one is really even talking about show dogs and second of all how is standing in the ring and moving your dog around it a couple times CRUEL? You mean to tell me a working dog such as an AB isn't capable of such a simple task?

What if you just have a good, nice tempermant family pet that you want to spread for other families to enjoy?

YES, but first, you have to understand what a good temperament is, and most people don't understand that , especially when you are dealing with a working breed.

Lisa, how did you get into breeding? Did you have formal training and materials, or does it come from experience

Why does everyone assume I am a breeder? Just because I speak out against irresponsible breeding means I must be breeding myself? Why, because you figure I am trying to scare off the competetion? Anyone who thinks this couldn't be more wrong. I am not going to say that I will never breed but one thing for certain is that it won't be done for the reason of filling the pet market and padding my pockets. It will be done for ME first (I would have to be in the market for a pup or 2 myself) and only if I have a waiting list of others who are interested in a pup from a particular breeding as well...I won
t breed just to be left with a bunch of pups I don't have proper homes for. Last but not least, I highly doubt there will be any SELLING...not that I think charging money is bad or anything (I paid for both my dogs) its just that the business part of breeding doesn't interest me. I would rather place the pups for free into homes that I would prefer, say friends (more specifically working homes) where I knew I could trust the people I was placing the pup with. It would make me much happier to know those puppies were in my ideal type of home even if it meant giving them away. Breeding dogs isn't about $$$ to me, its about producing better dogs than I have for my own and the breeds benefit!!

Why do you want to keep AB's not popular? I think they are great family dogs and that is what a lot of people look for.

Because the more people that know about them the more people who will want to irresponsibly breed them! The more people who breed, the more excess, the more CRAP that is produced and good homes for bully breeds just aren't all that common.

I would like to become a nationally known breeder but that would take a long time

The only way you are going to accomplish that is by listening to what everyone is telling you and by working and showing dogs yourself. Learn how to indentify strengths and weaknesses. Learning about proper temperament, health problems, genetics (in breeding, linebreeding, outcrossing, COI)..do you even know what I am talking about ?? If you want the respect of the AB community you are definitely not going to get it by breeding any 2 dogs that happen upon your yard that you haven't even bothered to try proving.

But what I still don't understand is why everyone thinks that AB's are not good family pets, because from my two I believe they are great family pets. And There temperments are not too strong for a family. I personally would feel more secure with my AB's to be around when I have children then a Labrador. I also see that everyone is all about this working dog stuff. Well, I personally find that cruel.

My gosh, the more of your posts I read, the more I want to bang my head against a brick wall. Working dog stuff cruel? WTF? Why do you think so many breeds were developed in the first place? The majority of breeds were bred for a specific task, even the Labrador is supposed to be a working dog (Retriever) but the backyard breeders have destroyed that breed too! What should we do Rachel? Ruin another magnficent working breed because you think its cruel to have your dog do anything but lay on a couch? Geeeezzzz, then you wonder why people are all over you. Amazing

My male is a Johnson type and I got him from a breeder here in the area. My female is........ I thought Bully, but everyone corrected me and there is no bully type.

Ok, you have now revealed that you don't even know the lineage of your dogs but you want to breed? Then you wonder why people are upset?

Bandit(male) is registered with Dog Registry of America, Inc.

What kind of registry is that? I think you got scammed.

My mom has a mean dog and I can't stand that dog. I don't understand why she is mean, because we never treated her bad or did things to make her mean.

This statement alone tells me that you should not even think about breeding. You do not have to mistreat a dog for it to have aggressive tenedecies. Sometimes they are just dominant and their owners don't have the skills to handle them or
it is fear based aggression because of bad genetics!!!!. If you don't even understand that temperament has a major genetic component how are you going to be able to produce well temperamented dogs?

Well, my mom has a half lab and half german sheaperd. I personally feel that german sheaperds are mean dogs. I have known quite a few sheaperds in my life and all of them for no reason were mean, but I think that is because alot of them are bred for police dogs, so they have to be aggresive. But man I was hoping my moms dog would have more lab in it.

More ignorance. You can't lump all GSD's together just like you can't lump all APBT's together. The GSD's you are referring to were probably backyard bred POS with horrible nerves that would probably never in a million years make a good police dog. I myself have seen several like this but I have also seen some very good ones. Remember, the more popular the breed, the more crappy ones there are out there, because people breeding don't know what they are doing! And, FYI dogs used in Police work or for personal protection should very well be able to be in a social situation. (Didn't you view my post with all the pictures) If a dog can't be trusted in a public place, how could it do its job? Again, like I said to LED, educate youself on what constitutes proper working temperament!!!!

I classify a working dog as, a dog that is show talented,

What is "show talented" and do you even know the difference between a show dog and working dog?


Rachel, please don't breed your dogs. Own them, enjoy them, be a responsible owner. Learn about what makes a good American Bulldog!!! Because right now you clearly don't know.

PS I don't care if you think I am rude.