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NCL - Canine Neuronal Ceroid Lipofuscinosis...so you aren't the only one that knows. Oh my! Even though you think you are. I will make a guess that you either have a kennel and don't want competition or you want a kennel but can't handle the work it entails. It seems you are addicted to bitching at people on the internet. You probably don't realize but some people have a knack for things. Some people play baseball, some chess, and some might have a knack for breeding quality dogs. Not saying that is me, but you badmouth everyone that wants to try. I sure hope you aren't a teacher!!! Your pupils would be messed up!
And, I have a good year to figure out if I would or would not breed my dogs. I might decide to breed one and not the other and be required to find a suitable partner. I will have them X-rayed and do whatever tests I deem necessary. I have it covered and believe I will do a better job than you would.
And, since you could not figure out what I meant by dogs going extinct look up Havanese Silk Dog. There are dog breeds that have become extinct. If you know so much about dogs I figured you knew that. Ever hear of the Dodo?
As far as testing them. I plan on pulling with them. When they hit about 14 months I will order a pulling harness. There isn't much around here for competitions so I can't say how many I will hit. But, pulling it good excercise for dogs regardless. I plan on taking the dogs to shows also so they can be judged.
Where can you take a class on dog breeding? It is called college classes. I bet much of it entails genetics.
My friend sold a dog to a friend of his that took the dog at around 8 months to a hog catch. A hog got close to where they were sitting and he grabbed it's nose through the fence. That is instinct and breeding if you can't figure it out.
And, where does it say in the AB standard that a dog should be anit-social to people???? Is that just your requirement?
Disposition: Alert, outgoing and friendly with a self-assured attitude. Some aloofness with strangers and assertiveness toward other dogs is not considered a fault.
Doesn't say they can't be people dogs. They are used in protection work and many people expect them to protect their families. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
Just because I love my dogs and think they are sweet doesn't mean they are not good ABs. Do you have to be mean to dogs before they are worthy of your praise??
I have better things to do this holiday season than worry about a grinch like you. You need some help. I took quite a few Psych classes in school and I can give you some free advice. Please repeat the phrase "There are other people in the world that have a clue. I am not the second coming of the Lord" 100 times and think about it.
 

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NCL - Canine Neuronal Ceroid Lipofuscinosis...so you aren't the only one that knows.
Are you aware that a dog need not be affected by it, to produce it?


I will make a guess that you either have a kennel and don't want competition or you want a kennel but can't handle the work it entails.
Nope. You see, my goal in life isn't to just breed dogs. Rather, it's to be able to find dogs good enough that I feel are worthy of it, work them, and have them in my yard. Breeding is an afterthought and would only be done if I wanted something from a litter myself.

There are dog breeds that have become extinct.
I do realize that, but the AB isn't one of them. If you don't believe me, check out petfinder.

Where can you take a class on dog breeding? It is called college classes.
Really? That's interesting! I would love to take such a course! Is it only available at certain colleges or do you know of several that offer it? I wonder if it is offered in Canada? I would love to take it. Can you recommend any good books on canine genetics? I have been wanting to order some but am leary about which ones are good.

And, where does it say in the AB standard that a dog should be anit-social to people???? Is that just your requirement?
Disposition: Alert, outgoing and friendly with a self-assured attitude. Some aloofness with strangers and assertiveness toward other dogs is not considered a fault.
Doesn't say they can't be people dogs. They are used in protection work and many people expect them to protect their families. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
Just because I love my dogs and think they are sweet doesn't mean they are not good ABs. Do you have to be mean to dogs before they are worthy of your praise??
Ok, this is where you lose me and where it clearly shows your lack of understanding when it comes to proper working temperament. When did I ever say an AB should be anti social and not people loving dogs? You have me so confused. If you knew me at all, you would know that I prefer an outgoing, friendly dog that can be taken in public..petted and enjoed by people of all ages. If ever I owned a dog not capable of being stable with people it would find its self 6 feet under very quickly. If you ask other working dog poeple they will tell you the same. A working dog (be it wieght pull , personal protection, sport dog, whatever) needs to be stable around people. My whole point was not that I like mean dogs, (you could not be further from the truth) but rather, have dogs with nerve and courage to protect their families or go after a wild hog. Doesn't mean they can't be loving, family pets. Where are you getting that from? You seem to have this horrible mis conception that protection dogs are some unstable, wild monsters? Speaking of temperament, I am still curious to know how you are going to test for nerve and courage?

LED, when you make comments that you have, then mention breeding, be prepared for questions. Let me give you a bit of advice. The next time you find a dog forum, instead of coming on saying you have 2 puppies you are wanting to breed, instead say you have 2 puppies that you plan on working and testing to see what they are made of. You will get alot more respect. Trust me.
 

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You need to ease up on attacking people IMO. People should not have to write out a complete book to show competancy just so they aren't antagonized. I let my wife read some of your posts because she is far more easy going than I am. I am actually a pretty hardnosed person. You can ask our 3 boys when it is chore time. Anyway, the wife thought your posts were very negative and antagonistic also.
I came to the forum to see what I could learn, what I should learn more about, to get a few more web links in my favorites, etc. But, besides for some people enjoying the sharing of pictures I see people getting a lot of grief. And, grief isn't worth it.
 

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Led, stick around. Some people , like Lisa, are very passionate about the breed and hate seeing just anyone breed any dog. Just look what has happened with pit bulls. Its very frustrating. All I'm asking is for you to try and understand why people get upset about breeding. Especially those who have gotten dogs from a backyard breeders. I'm not here to judge. But if you do decide to breed, please please make sure the dogs you choose to breed are excellent. And you have worked them in some way.

Lets all just be cool.
 

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Led said:
Anyway, the wife thought your posts were very negative and antagonistic also.
Of course she did! I called you out and made you look silly. You don't even understand what proper working temprament is, (you make that VERY obvious) and you want to breed what is supposed to be working dogs!! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: If you made the remarks on a working dog forum that you made here, you would be laughed right off and thats a fact. I think you have a long way to go before you should even be thinking about breeding!!! If you can't bear to wait and educate yourself (and sorry to break it to ya, but its gonna take more than 1.5 years), then maybe you should think of breeding lap dogs and leave the working dogs alone!
 

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Lisa said:
Led said:
Anyway, the wife thought your posts were very negative and antagonistic also.
Of course she did! I called you out and made you look silly. You don't even understand what proper working temprament is, (you make that VERY obvious) and you want to breed what is supposed to be working dogs!! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: If you made the remarks on a working dog forum that you made here, you would be laughed right off and thats a fact. I think you have a long way to go before you should even be thinking about breeding!!! If you can't bear to wait and educate yourself (and sorry to break it to ya, but its gonna take more than 1.5 years), then maybe you should think of breeding lap dogs and leave the working dogs alone!
No, because she knows how passionate I am about our future with ABs. She didn't believe you made me look silly. She thinks you have a lot of pent up frustration...maybe a few decades and you need some intimate time. And, she knows how much I hit the books on the subject. She knows how much I have stored away upstairs about dogs and I am not going to waste my time writing a thesis for you to read. And, that same sweet dog was aloof the first time I met her and only until my friend let her know I was okay did she settle down and accept me. She did so wholeheartely though. But, she has drive and she would work your dog into the ground at 7 years old. Pound for pound I would bet on her. This breeder believes that DRIVE is very important in his dogs and they have it and they will perform when it is asked of them. Believe it or not working dogs CAN BE part of a family. They can love kids. They can love grandparents. They can love people in general after being introduced to strangers by the dominant pack leader in their life.
You fail to recognize things. Do you think that everything is black & white? Even if you with all your Legend In Your Own Mind knowledge had two dogs and bred them the litter will NOT be all the same. Not every dog in it would be of Champion quality even though you would say they were. Not every dog would be a show dog. That is GENETICS at work. Would every pup be the same size? Would they all the be same color? Why do people charge more money for first pick? It sounds like you believe you could produce perfect litters with your massive amounts of experience and knowledge. You could blow geneticists away couldn't you. Screw the government grants they receive for research they just need to ask you right!
And, should I start breeding ABs my contracts and dogs will do all the talking. I think you menioned it yourself.......people need to investigate what they buy. If they CHOOSE to buy from me they are evidently happy with the pup. And, I will be choosy on who I sell to. I would NEVER sell a dog to you because you probably beat your dogs if they disappoint you.
It also comes down my ability to learn. I have that ability. How many college degrees do you have? I have two. A double major BA and an Associates in Mechanical Engineering. I have the ability to learn. I have proven that time and again. Do you?
 

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She thinks you have a lot of pent up frustration
You got that right...and you can thank all the wannabe breeders coming to this site wanting to breed their unproven pets.

And, she knows how much I hit the books on the subject. She knows how much I have stored away upstairs about dogs
Boy, you sure wouldn't know that judging from your posts......

quote from LED

Do you have to be mean to dogs before they are worthy of your praise??
Again, where are you getting this from? What makes you think I am mean to my dogs or like mean dogs? Why can't you answer that?

But, she has drive and she would work your dog into the ground at 7 years old. Pound for pound I would bet on her. This breeder believes that DRIVE is very important in his dogs and they have it and they will perform when it is asked of them.
Whatever...why can't you answer my question as to how you would test the NERVE of your dogs? Do you think that the only prerequisite for a good working dog is drive? If you do, you are sadly mistaken. What about making the dog work under control and enviornemntal pressue? Do you know how many dogs who appear to be great working dogs fall apart when they are asked to do that same job while under strict obedience or how many dogs will quit simply because someone threw a jug of rocks at them? Do you understand how much STRESS can affect a dog and how many dogs when confronted by it go into avoidance? My guess is you don't. What type of "work" has your friends dog done? How advanced? How about some pictures or video of this great working dog?

Believe it or not working dogs CAN BE part of a family. They can love kids. They can love grandparents. They can love people in general after being introduced to strangers by the dominant pack leader in their life.
You fail to recognize things.
No, YOU are the one who fails to recognize things. You have no clue or understanding about proper working temperament: nerve, drives (and notice I have drives in plural because there is more than one), courage, hardness, thresholds. etc. Do you honestly think that I don't think a working dog can make a good family pet? Did you not read my last post?

litter will NOT be all the same.
No sh*t, sherlock!

It sounds like you believe you could produce perfect litters with your massive amounts of experience and knowledge.
No I don't. If I did wouldn't I already be breeding?

I would NEVER sell a dog to you because you probably beat your dogs if they disappoint you.
Is this what you have to stoop to? Making things up because you can't have an intelligent debate because you have been questioned and your lack of understanding of proper working temperament has been exposed? Do you really think I would waste my $$$ on your unproven pets anyways?

It also comes down my ability to learn. I have that ability. How many college degrees do you have? I have two. A double major BA and an Associates in Mechanical Engineering. I have the ability to learn. I have proven that time and again. Do you?
Big Deal! I have a college degree in Law and Security so what? Maybe if you have such a great ability to learn, maybe you should join a working dog club and some working dog forums , where you can learn about what makes a working dog before you go ahead and try and breed them. Funny I don't see you on any working dog boards but yet you want to breed working dogs? I thought you wanted to learn?

Here are some pics of my mean, anti social dogs who make horrible family pets. :roll:

My mother and grandmother really look terrified don't they?



My father in law really looks scared does't he?



Mother in law..shaking in her boots...



Bonding time with my hubby



What am I doing taking my mean, anti social dogs out to a public place??



So mean and anti social, she lets a stranger check her bite in the conformation ring.....



Enjoying a family camping trip in a public campground.



My dogs at work...YES they can be a pet and working dog..Get it now!!







showing he can take a stick hit and still stay on the man..good NERVE



Notice the full mouth bite...shows commitment..something you probably don't know about...and she's only 10 months old in the pics.



 

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This has nothing to do with the friendly debate going on, but I just wanted to say that your dogs are BEAUTIFUL Lisa!!!! You should definately post more of them!
 

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I agree with Hausmommy, Lisa you should post more of your dogs both in work mode and loving mode. Both are great dogs and we want more of them!
Now back to straightening out the mess. You go girl!
 

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But, she has drive and she would work your dog into the ground at 7 years old. Pound for pound I would bet on her. This breeder believes that DRIVE is very important in his dogs and they have it and they will perform when it is asked of them.
Hmm. Maddi has all the drive I could want...too much for a pet. Pull out a toy and she goes nuts. Smaller dog walking down the street, she goes nuts. Stranger walking down the street, she tries to jump through the window. Playing tug I can swing her around in circles, she goes nuts for the tug toy. Never worked with a sleeve, but once she got it she'd be all over it. Damn why don't I have her in protection sports?

Oh yeah....she spooks so bad at any unexpected noise or motion that she's almost uncontrollable. Get near anything that even RESEMBLES the pound and she tries to bolt. Lots of good that would do me in the real world.

Point being, drive is a small part of a big whole when you're looking at working your dog. I know nothing about working and breeding and I at least know that.
 

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Hey, everyone is picking on this poor guy. What I don't understand is why do you have to buy a puppy to breed that is show bound. But if you ask me I think that is cruel. What if you just have a good, nice tempermant family pet that you want to spread for other families to enjoy? I will be honest my husband and I wanted to enter my dog in shows and I do believe he does have capabilities to do so, but he is my family member first and formost, I am not out there to make him work hard. I just enjoy the company and yes, I do want to breed my dogs. If you think about it there are more families out there that just peerly want a good family dog, and not take them to shows. I do agree that you shouldn't just buy to breed, but like me it has always been a passion of mine to at least try it once. And, like he said everyone has to start somewhere. I signed on to this forum for advice myself.
 

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Rachel Casey said:
Hey, everyone is picking on this poor guy. What I don't understand is why do you have to buy a puppy to breed that is show bound. But if you ask me I think that is cruel. What if you just have a good, nice tempermant family pet that you want to spread for other families to enjoy? I will be honest my husband and I wanted to enter my dog in shows and I do believe he does have capabilities to do so, but he is my family member first and formost, I am not out there to make him work hard. I just enjoy the company and yes, I do want to breed my dogs. If you think about it there are more families out there that just peerly want a good family dog, and not take them to shows. I do agree that you shouldn't just buy to breed, but like me it has always been a passion of mine to at least try it once. And, like he said everyone has to start somewhere. I signed on to this forum for advice myself.
This has nothing to do with showing your dog. And there is nothing wrong with having an AB as a family dog. I do myself. The point that is trying to be made is that you shouldnt just take any dog that looks nice and seems healthy and breed it. Just because you love your dog and think its cute that doesnt mean that it is going to make a good dog to breed. People work their dogs before breeding because it helps to show how solid their nerves are, how physically sound they are, and what their temperament is like. I just wish people would leave breeding to the pros. We dont need any more bully breeds with temperament or health problems in this world. People have screwed up pit bulls and I dont want to see that happen to ABs. And I sure as hell dont want ABs popularized.
 

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Rachel Casey said:
Kogeki are you a breeder? how did you get started
No, not at all. I have no intentions of ever breeding as of right now. I dont know if that will change later down the line after I have worked and worked with ABs for a long time. But I am not qualified to breed. Yes, I have read alot about bulldogs, history, health, breeding etc. But it takes a heck of alot more than that. I think there are enough breeders out there anyways. If I bred, I would probably so specific about who would buy the pups that I would probably never get rid of them, lol.
 

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The point that is trying to be made here is that there are thousands of homeless AB's and other bully breeds in the world today. The majority of these homeless dogs came from "breeders" who wanted to "spread thier loving family pets to other families" or "just wanted to breed once" or "we paid alot of money for our dogs, so we want to breed a litter to make our money back" and whatever other lame excuse that people come up with. Sure the majority of dog owners just want pets, but as has been mentioned... not every pup from working/show titled parents will end up being a working/show dog. Reputable breeders not only offer show/working prospects, but offer pet quality pups as well. Getting a dog from a breeder who works/shows is knowledgable on the breed, health tests, guarantees, etc. is much better than taking a risk on a BYB's pup. The breed is already plagued with health and temperament issues and BYB's breeding thier untested pets is only compounding the problem. You may pay a bit more for a dog from a reputable breeder, but that dog will be backed by the breeder, guranteed, followed up for it's entire life. A BYB's pup will be cheaper, but if something happens to the pup (which seems to happen quite often)..guess what..too bad for you.Do I believe everyone has to start somewhere? Sure, but that somewhere should be gaining breed knowledge, pedigree knowledge, health issues, finding a breed mentor and learning to show/work dogs, helping your mentor with thier breeding and whelping process, etc. BEFORE you just decide to throw your dogs together. No one can predict if thier pup will be breedworthy.... most people's first prospects end up not making the grade..... buying a pup for breeding purposes is purely a crapshoot and not a very smart thing to do.

I am extremely passionate about the breed and can't stand to see posts like this. I get multiple calls/emails a week from "breeders" who have bred thier unpapered dogs and want to know what they should charge for pups, or they have behavioral issues with thier dogs, or they can't handle the dogs and want to give them to me for rescue or they want to breed thier unpapered, untested female to one of my studs, etc.... I had one guy call and say he had been breeding AB's for 15 years... after talking to him for awhile, I learned his dogs were not papered, untested, and were riddled with health issues. The man knew ZERO breed history, no pedigrees and had no idea that there were shows or working events for the breed at all.... he bred his females every cycle and sold pups in the paper for $50.00 a peice. It's things like this that make me sick... that, and the fact that I have had to euthanize many of these BYB's dogs for health and temperament issues...every time I have to put a dog down for no fault of it's own, just breaks my heart. If people took more time and consideration when it came to breeding thier dogs, things like that would not have to happen.

I am in full agreeance with Lisa on this subject...sure she may be to the point and "harsh" in her answers, but I can appreciate that. She is very knowledgable about AB's and is a valuable asset to the forums.

I will have to step back from this post a bit and regroup my thoughts...I have a TON to say about the subject.... stay tuned.....
 

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I would be specific about who my pups would go with also, but there might be quite a few breeders out there, but that doesn't mean there are that many in each persons area. I checked out for AB's for a while before we purchased and they were all over $1000 a piece. Well, I am sorry but I just don't have that kind of money sitting around. So I think local breeders are great. I understand about the health issues. That is why I have already been advised by my vet. And trust me I am taking everything he said to the max. Like for instance waiting until they are two and having their hips checked, that is just one of things that he has adviced me on. Why do you want to keep AB's not popular? I think they are great family dogs and that is what a lot of people look for. I have also gotten crap from local people who say breeding shouldn't be done, because of all the pets that already need homes, and I am the type who would have all those pets at my house if I could. But there has always been one dream of mine and that was to become a breeder, and in order for me to do that I need advise from others who have been or done it themselves. I am doing alot of research, so as far as that goes I think I am doing pretty good, but research sometimes leaves out important stuff that you don't know unless you are there. That is why I found this site and signed up. So, just so everyone knows I am not out there to make money, I am purely following a dream. Yes, I will get some money for pups, but I though of starting a savings account purely just for my dogs. So, money is not my issue. I just don't think there is anything wrong with people wanting to breed. This is exactly how the big breeders started. They didn't know what they were doing either. Like I said before everyone has to start somewhere. Maybe after I do it once or find out my dogs have health issues I may not ever do it again. But, I really don't feel that there is anything wrong with trying.
 
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