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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What's your opinion on this breeding:

LECLERC'S THUNDER BST2, CD1, PSA1
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KIWS' TIGER'S EYE OF TOPLINE ATTS

I know there are only a handful of PSA Titled AB's out there - if you were buying a pup to train for PSA, who would you prefer to get a pup from?
 

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Wow. sounds like a nice breeding. I don't know KIWS tiger's eye, but she has some nice dogs behind her.

NOW, thunder, I know very well. Worked in many 3-4 times on different occasions. One of the very best.

This dog is (bar none) the strongest dog I have ever come across. He is about 100lbs, I think. He is slow as hell, but man he is soooo strong. His bite is a bit shallow, but enough to give me a permanent scar in my pecs, through my suit. On hogs, he is an absolute MONSTER.
Very stable. Very social. He loves everyone. In this way, I like him better than my dog. My dog Chucky is social, but I would not leave him alone with a stranger. He is LIMITED social. :lol: :lol:

Thunder is the only dog that EVER RAGDOLLED ME. EVER. He broke Dave Putnam's ribs. The dog is a freak of nature. I love him. LOL.

However.............LOL. now being picky. LOL. He is very houndy. he looks like a giant hound. LONG back. oh damm. :lol: He is a bit slow too. THIS is a bulldog! Real old tyme bulldog.

You know, I would breed my female to him. THAT is what I think of thunder!

Now, for PP or PSA which breeder will I go to? Well, I think there is ONLY ONE GUY. Lucillano Oliva. He has trained and titled more PSA bulldogs than anyone. He trained a presa for PSA 1. He trained Thunder for his PSA. I got MY psa dog from him off of Q, PSA 1, BST.
I know Lucillano loves thunder, as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Here you go Meagan....

http://www.kiwsabs.com/breeding/breeding_main.htm



Thanks PeterC. Yeah, I'd LOOOOOVE to train with Lucillano Oliva, but that's one heck of a drive from TX to CA. LOL! :D I wish I could have gone to the PSA trial he held this past weekend. :(

Do you know if he'll be breeding any of his PSA dogs?
 

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Well, I have to be honest. His dog Wedo is a bit hot for most folks. In every litter there is a variation. Q is now dead and so is other PSA dog. Probably the hardest AB I have ever met. That is not that good either.

Now Garuk is Q's brother that ALSO has a psa1. He is NICE.



He has a lot of dogs he is working with, right now. I know he has a son of Q and a brother to Chucky. They are bred VERY tight. Maybe too much drive, I don't know.

Tell him what you want to do and he will set you up. Go visit EVERYBODY's yard! You don't know what they have to offer until you see their stuff. Could be all bullshi# website internet breeder stuff.

[email protected]
This is Luc's e-mail. Tell him Peter sent ya and you want to do PSA. OHHHHHHHHH he will give you something NASTY. hahahhaah.
 

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PeterC said:
Well, I have to be honest. His dog Wedo is a bit hot for most folks. In every litter there is a variation. Q is now dead and so is other PSA dog. Probably the hardest AB I have ever met. That is not that good either.

Now Garuk is Q's brother that ALSO has a psa1. He is NICE.



He has a lot of dogs he is working with, right now. I know he has a son of Q and a brother to Chucky. They are bred VERY tight. Maybe too much drive, I don't know.

Tell him what you want to do and he will set you up. Go visit EVERYBODY's yard! You don't know what they have to offer until you see their stuff. Could be all bullshi# website internet breeder stuff.

[email protected]
This is Luc's e-mail. Tell him Peter sent ya and you want to do PSA. OHHHHHHHHH he will give you something NASTY. hahahhaah.
Too much? I didnt know there was such a thing. Man we are going to need a bigger back yard for these dogs. I guess we need to start looking for some land to live on. I can see it now, it will be just like going to Bill and Sammy's to train.
 

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oh......you will learn.

LOL. Yep. too much. How do you train a dog that is WILLING to take OUT his handler to get at the decoy? hahahaha. It is an art. Respect. Setting rank. Imprinting. You cannot physically win. Too much. The dog is willing to die for a bite. Probably not a competition dog, but a dog worth working with. A dog that NEEDS your respect or you go to the hospital, in a heart beat.

Ask around about Q and his father Block head block. Too much.........that word comes out quite often. You meet Q and you understand what REAL drive is about.

Yep, some dogs are too much. Yet, he was trainable. High maintenance, yes. :lol: That is why Lucillano has my respect. He can train dogs like Q and Wedo. Not many can. Trust me.

High prey aggression, high fight. relentless escalation. too much? maybe.

you will see one day, those rare dogs that come out to the training field to KILL the decoy. This is white rage. Pinch collar will do NOTHING. E-collar will do nothing. LOL. So, how do you control such a dog? LOL. Now, that is the skill, isn't it? That is why you go to guys like Lucillano. YOu learn. I learned so much off this guy about HARD dogs.

I think he is one of the BEST trainers out there, especially with HARD AS# dogs, and for sure with bulldogs.
 

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PeterC, Obviously you like HARD dogs, as does alot of other people. There is one guy at my schutzhund club that has a very hard female German Shepard, she came from alot hard lines. Her sire is so hard, at one point they put the ecollar on his testicles and he still didn't respond.

THere is also this other guy there that likes a hard dog, but he also likes it to be some what handle sensitive, he says they are alot easier to deal with, thats pretty obvious. They were kinda arguing, Peter the guy who likes hard dogs says that in the end you have a way better dog, the other guy says in the end he will have just as good of a dog, what do you think?
 

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Re: oh......you will learn.

PeterC said:
LOL. Yep. too much. How do you train a dog that is WILLING to take OUT his handler to get at the decoy? hahahaha. It is an art. Respect. Setting rank. Imprinting. You cannot physically win. Too much. The dog is willing to die for a bite. Probably not a competition dog, but a dog worth working with. A dog that NEEDS your respect or you go to the hospital, in a heart beat.

Ask around about Q and his father Block head block. Too much.........that word comes out quite often. You meet Q and you understand what REAL drive is about.

Yep, some dogs are too much. Yet, he was trainable. High maintenance, yes. :lol: That is why Lucillano has my respect. He can train dogs like Q and Wedo. Not many can. Trust me.

High prey aggression, high fight. relentless escalation. too much? maybe.

you will see one day, those rare dogs that come out to the training field to KILL the decoy. This is white rage. Pinch collar will do NOTHING. E-collar will do nothing. LOL. So, how do you control such a dog? LOL. Now, that is the skill, isn't it? That is why you go to guys like Lucillano. YOu learn. I learned so much off this guy about HARD dogs.

I think he is one of the BEST trainers out there, especially with HARD AS# dogs, and for sure with bulldogs.
I was only kidding, I have seen a Mal that lives to kill the decoy, he has to have the E-Collar set of fry to out at times. Nobody but Sammy has touched Crash, with out a muzzle on. If I could go to Lucillano I would. But at this time we have to work with what we got.
 

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Well, I think not every dog is suited for sch or ring or psa. It is VERY high level OB.
To the same extent, you have to match the owner to the dog. One dog may be a dream for one handler and it can be a nightmare to another.

For HIGH level sch, you need reliable compliance. So, you need balance. Dogs that WIN sch nationals or ring nationals are NOT the hardest. They have GREAT balance. Hard enough and obedient enough. Too soft and the dog folds. Too hard and they don't stop the fight. Balance.

Decoys and some trainers get into this mode of having the toughest dog in the world complex. It is the decoy complex. LOL. Tough dog.......never pass a trial. :wink: UNLESS, you are incredibly dedicated.

Some dogs........pain is not the answer. They need repitition. It makes it worse, especially on a bulldog. Hell, what do you think will happen to a MONSTER when he figures out YOU are creating the shocks from the e collar? Wouldn't YOU (if you were the dog) take the guy out with the controls? I would. Why do you think a dominant monster won't?

E collars really should not be used as a punishment tool, in my opinion. It is a reminder tool. YOu have to teach it to turn it OFF.

You need balance in a GREAT dog. Too hard is not good, either. Too soft and it is a crapper.

What is MOST impressive is when a dog has incredible drive and HIGH control. Because it took a lot to contain that drive. Sometimes containing that drive squashes the dog and makes it fold. Huge issue with ABs. Now, with most hard dogs, the control falls apart if you do not CONSTANTLY maintain it. It is just the way it is. Do you have the freaking patience to maintain it ALL THE TIME???? Most do not. Most do not want to deal with it all the time.

Balance is the key. But courage and nerves is everything.
 

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What a great thread this has turned into. Peter, you have made some real good points. Many times those high scoring dogs are nothing to write home about but they are "correct" in the work, so they go home with all the hardware. I could care less about high in trials, tropheys, and all that stuff. Would much rather have a dog that people would remember, not because of its correctness, but for its intensity. I would much rather fail the protection phase of a SCH trial or whatever pp event, due to my dog being unruly and giving me the finger, than bringing home the hardware with some soft dog who is just mediocre in its work and afraid to make a misatake and face the wrath of its handler. I was talking to my friend about some Rottweiler that is working titled up the ass and the owners "brag" that this dog was trained totally by motivation. I'm like WTF???? People are BRAGGING about that? That would be embarrassing. If I had a dog that was so soft I had to work it purely motivationally, it would not be worthy of a title and I would not hesitate to relegate it to pet status and it most definitely would not be bred!!!. A dog who falls apart when the handler puts control on it it, is useless to me. They need to maintain that work ethic, no matter what.

I know alot about working those high drive assholes, I'm just lucky mine don't come up the leash. However, its no picnic to get some dogs to work under rules, even the ones who aren't apt to retaliate. Its alot of hard work and alot of blood sweat and tears! Have you guys ever imagined what it is like to give a correction to a tree stump? Well, I can describe it to you if you want...lol. As much as a pain in the ass it is to work with such an animal, I wish there was more like that. After all, wasn't the bulldog bred to think independently? They were never bred to be in tune with a handler like the GSD's and mals. A good bulldog should give you the finger on occassion, if it means getting what they want and satisfying that drive they have.

The best dogs usually never make it to the podium. I have learned that very quick. It's the training, not the trial, where you see what most dogs are made of anyways, and I don't care what your training goals are, SCH, Ring, PSA, street work etc, if you train right and your dog has weaknesses you will see it in the training . As long as the training is not too soft that is. Many people tend to hide their dogs weaknesses by babying them during training and hoping for the best on trial day. That's avoidance. Not my cup of tea. If my dogs have weaknesses, I want them exposed and will do whatever I have to during training to accomplish that.
 

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Lisa, you are right on. That is why I really don't care about the dog's titles. I want to work the dog myself or get the opinion of guys I trust.

How many times have you seen a dog working on his own club decoy and do fantastic and yet try a strange BIG decoy and the dog folds like a deck of cards. LOL.

I think finding a good dog is exceedingly difficult.

Thunder is a good one.

PS. Bremner.......if your decoys EVER come to Vancouver, please ask them to drop by. Ice loves new decoys and if they like hard dogs........ :lol: they will love Chucky aka psycho. Always nice to work with unfamiliar decoys to proof our training, especially guys skilled in sleeve work. Maybe we can pick their brains about tracking techniques.
 

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PeterC said:
PS. Bremner.......if your decoys EVER come to Vancouver, please ask them to drop by. Ice loves new decoys and if they like hard dogs........ :lol: they will love Chucky aka psycho. Always nice to work with unfamiliar decoys to proof our training, especially guys skilled in sleeve work. Maybe we can pick their brains about tracking techniques.
For sure, I'll have to see if Peter is going down there, he is the most experienced guy at out club for sure. He was giving me alot of tracking tips, I wish I had a video camera, cause he talked more then I can remember, lol. He is so friendly and helpful.

Here is the link to the club, Peter is the decoy in pretty much every picture.

http://www.chinookschutzhundclubofalberta.com/
 
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