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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok, so jon and I were just having a discussion/argument about this. I would like to open up the topic of historical dog fighting vs. street dog fighting. I argue that (because I learned this from here) historical fighting brought us the dogs we own today. Jon says that historical fighitng, while perhaps more organized and acceptable, led to what is known as street fighting today. And that because of the crap that goes on today, it may soon be totally illegal to own the breeds we do. Its a topic hard to avoid when dealing with bullies, so what are your thoughts guys?

I will also add I do not enjoy ANY kind of dog fighting and would never participate nor spectate a sport like this.
 

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Ok, so jon and I were just having a discussion/argument about this. I would like to open up the topic of historical dog fighting vs. street dog fighting. I argue that (because I learned this from here) historical fighting brought us the dogs we own today. Jon says that historical fighitng, while perhaps more organized and acceptable, led to what is known as street fighting today. And that because of the crap that goes on today, it may soon be totally illegal to own the breeds we do. Its a topic hard to avoid when dealing with bullies, so what are your thoughts guys?

I will also add I do not enjoy ANY kind of dog fighting and would never participate nor spectate a sport like this.
Steph, I think his topic would be an interesting one but there are a few things you should keep in mind here..

First of all, dog fighting is ILLEGAL. Most people are hesitant to discuss things in any detail on a public forum that are considered to be illegal activities. Secondly, you leave a disclaimer at the end of your post which basically says you are against dog fighting. If this ends up being a topic of discussion, I think it may end up being a one sided one.

You will probably get more opinions and information if you were to go about this more privately. By asking people to openly discuss something that is illegal and doing so while you voice your opposition to it, you aren't likely to get the honest opinions you may be genuinely looking for.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Steph, I think his topic would be an interesting one but there are a few things you should keep in mind here..

First of all, dog fighting is ILLEGAL. Most people are hesitant to discuss things in any detail on a public forum that are considered to be illegal activities. Secondly, you leave a disclaimer at the end of your post which basically says you are against dog fighting. If this ends up being a topic of discussion, I think it may end up being a one sided one.

You will probably get more opinions and information if you were to go about this more privately. By asking people to openly discuss something that is illegal and doing so while you voice your opposition to it, you aren't likely to get the honest opinions you may be genuinely looking for.
Yes. This is probably all true. However, I really am not interested in PMing people about it. It was more of a get the ball rolling and listen to some differing opinions. The last time this topic was discussed, I learned a lot and had my mind changed, so I think it could turn into a good discussion.

To the mods, if it would be against your better judgment to open this up, that's totally fine. I completely understand.
 

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I don't know much about the history of dog fighting past versus present. I believe years past there was a certain "honor amongst thieves" attitude that went along with it. I would imagine there are still groups of true dogmen out there that adhere to that "code". I'm sure the "selective" breeding that went on then was specifically suited to the fighting arena whereas nowadays the breeding program has gone the way that most breeding programs go for the majority of dog breeds out there today. Either way it spells doom for a very remarkable and storied breed.
 

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The Debate and Discussion section is a good place for this topic. Do keep in
mind the rules for this section. Please also keep in mind that just because the
topic is posted does not mean this is the view point of BDB Forum Site. It is
an open discussion and to be treated as an open debate. Thank you.
:)
 

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I'm going to remind people to watch what they say here. This thread and its responses will show up on google and there are anti-pit bull people and organizations that go to sites like this and use this kind of thing against these dogs and their owners.

Lisa makes a good point.
 

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I personally know jack about dog fighting, but I hope I will learn something from this topic.
 

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I would also be interested in how each member's town deals with this issue
and how prevalent it is in each town.
I think this would fit in with the topic.

In my thinking, I believe the difference is the people involved. Going from Dogman to street guys and wagering. Neither of which were legal but I think Dogman did it to see which was the better breed and street guys just want to know which can last the longest to make them the most money. Its always about money.
 

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Gazar, Idaho is one of 2 states is which dog fighting is still a simple misdemeanor. Kind of surprising seeing as how there is a strong conservative political demographic. I've not heard of any dog fighting rings in this area but have spoken to vets who treat dogs they suspect as being either fighting dogs or bait dogs. I'm not real sure why anyone would want to blow their cover by having a bait dog treated by a vet. I've had some interesting conversations with a couple of dogmen while I was incarcerated and was quite surprised to find out they don't see any harm in it at all. Seems their take on dog fighting is the same as any other sporting enthusiast and that is to "work" the dog in a venue for which it was commonly bred for.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I did mention I do not enjoy nor spectate any dogfights, however I have come to terms with the fact that it happens and it is a history of our breeds. It made our dogs who they are today.

What makes me shudder when I think about fighting is what happens mainly outside of the ring. Stories of dogs being put in pools and electrocuted, dogs being hung, drowned, beat... etc. I wonder what dogmen did years ago when a dog lost? Did these types of things happen outside of the ring as well?

I am aware that many stories are just stories... but some very terrible things do happen to these dogs. Are these things what thugs do just to occupy themselves or blow off steam when losing a fight? Or was this common centuries ago as well? These are all things I wonder about and also the things that piss me off about fighting.
 

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It's an interesting subject for me only from an historical standpoint. Many a breed of dog has been used for various sport over the years with some still popular today. Many different terriers, hounds, bullys, and others are used to run on various game in the name of sport. Even humans engage in sports such as MMA and boxing. Why is dog fighting so much different? I really don't have an answer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I think with MMA and boxing, the people are making their own choices. However, I don't doubt that the dogs enjoy the fight. I also agree its an interesting subject from a historical standpoint. Humans have done many shameful things to other humans in the past ie slavery, Auschwitz... the point is we should learn from it and never forget it happened. We don't bull bait anymore (?) because it was deemed inhumane, however rodeo is still ok? Slaughter houses? Fur farms? None of these are humane, so what makes dogfighting so much worse? I don't know.
 

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To answer your question street fighting as you put it is the direct result of the the animal rights movement. Even today one kind find literature about dog fighting, from use of bait dogs to supplies needed to doctor up a dog. Many websites offer lists of equipment, things to look for if you suspect someone of fighting their dog. These things are nothing more than "how to guides" for those inclined to follow such pursuits. It's really that simple go online to some sites that speak of the horrors of dog fighting and get yourself an education on how to fight your dog.

As with all things in life, there are people that fall on the wrong side of things. So to say that historical dog fighting didn't have it's cruelty is absurd. In today's venues you'll find those that fall short of what the mainstream find acceptable.
 

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This is something I would like to find out more about as well.

The initial images it conjures up are of death and cruelty; not good ones.

But from what little I have read up on there seems to have been a lot of decent dogmen out there; farmer-types as well as traveller/gypsy groups who adhered to a strict code of conduct which minimalised injuries and death of the dogs and depending on what you read kept better care of their dogs and bred more responsibly than the average dog owner/ "breeder" of today.

Whether any of these folk still exist and if so how many in comparison to the more modern day stereotypical gangster dog fighter I would have absolutely no idea.

Either way it would appear we owe these people any gratitude and credit for the dogs we love and cherish of today, for it was they who put in the work to create the modern bulldogs we now know and love..

Around Birmngham where I live there have been 2 or 3 reasonable size busts in the past few years.
One in particular yielded something like a dozen convictions and lead to the unfortunate euthanising of 20 or so dogs.

Notably amongst the Asiain community where from what I can gather it seems they know nothing of the sort of practices your old school dogman would use and have little interest or compassion at all in their dogs.

But again I can only really make assumptions based on the bits and pieces of knowledge I have gained, I stand to be corrected by whoever has better knowledge of this scene than I.
 

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Reading the replies here made me think of a short video I watched about the bully kutta.

Its a breed that comes from Pakistan and is used today for fighting, beautiful, large mastiff like dogs. But they showed the owner of one of the prized dogs and he was obviously very poor, but he was massaging this dog with a damp rag. You could tell that he truly cared for the dog and did the best he could. I don't know if I will be able to find the video again but I will try.

Here is a bully kutta, there is a man in the UK that started importing them a few years ago and you can find lots of photos of his dog max. Amazing dogs from what I have seen.
 

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Whats wrong with the picture?

I have seen this picture a million times....it often comes up in discussion about the bully kutta. Maybe that's why it doesn't bother me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Um thats a sad picture. The dog looks a mess and is being held by ropes like its some kind of dinosaur.

Anyways... there is also the Tosa from Japan.

They do not fight to the death and they are judged on temperament, stamina, and injuries inflicted.
 

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Whats wrong with using a rope?

Obviously the owners are poor, it does not mean that they care less for the dog.
We see dogs in muzzles all the time in North America, in fact its the law here that all pitbull type dogs MUST be muzzled.

Its funny how someone doesn't want to be judged for breed choice but will freely judge someone from another country for using rope instead of a leash lol. The bully kutta is an ancient breed and the dog pictured is a beautiful rare specimen. Nothing in that picture indicates that the dog is being mistreated.

Tosas are beautiful dogs and I have had the pleasure of meeting a few in person, although very aloof, beautiful mastiffs. Tosa's, bully kuttas and fila's are all active guard dogs, working dogs, natural guardians, these breeds do not need to be taught how to guard as they are still actively working as guard dogs in their country of origin and there is nothing wrong with a working dog working. These breeds may not wear bows or live on a couch but they are beautiful natural breeds.

These breeds get ruined once North America starts importing them.
 
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