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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok, so jon and I were just having a discussion/argument about this. I would like to open up the topic of historical dog fighting vs. street dog fighting. I argue that (because I learned this from here) historical fighting brought us the dogs we own today. Jon says that historical fighitng, while perhaps more organized and acceptable, led to what is known as street fighting today. And that because of the crap that goes on today, it may soon be totally illegal to own the breeds we do. Its a topic hard to avoid when dealing with bullies, so what are your thoughts guys?

I will also add I do not enjoy ANY kind of dog fighting and would never participate nor spectate a sport like this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Steph, I think his topic would be an interesting one but there are a few things you should keep in mind here..

First of all, dog fighting is ILLEGAL. Most people are hesitant to discuss things in any detail on a public forum that are considered to be illegal activities. Secondly, you leave a disclaimer at the end of your post which basically says you are against dog fighting. If this ends up being a topic of discussion, I think it may end up being a one sided one.

You will probably get more opinions and information if you were to go about this more privately. By asking people to openly discuss something that is illegal and doing so while you voice your opposition to it, you aren't likely to get the honest opinions you may be genuinely looking for.
Yes. This is probably all true. However, I really am not interested in PMing people about it. It was more of a get the ball rolling and listen to some differing opinions. The last time this topic was discussed, I learned a lot and had my mind changed, so I think it could turn into a good discussion.

To the mods, if it would be against your better judgment to open this up, that's totally fine. I completely understand.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I did mention I do not enjoy nor spectate any dogfights, however I have come to terms with the fact that it happens and it is a history of our breeds. It made our dogs who they are today.

What makes me shudder when I think about fighting is what happens mainly outside of the ring. Stories of dogs being put in pools and electrocuted, dogs being hung, drowned, beat... etc. I wonder what dogmen did years ago when a dog lost? Did these types of things happen outside of the ring as well?

I am aware that many stories are just stories... but some very terrible things do happen to these dogs. Are these things what thugs do just to occupy themselves or blow off steam when losing a fight? Or was this common centuries ago as well? These are all things I wonder about and also the things that piss me off about fighting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I think with MMA and boxing, the people are making their own choices. However, I don't doubt that the dogs enjoy the fight. I also agree its an interesting subject from a historical standpoint. Humans have done many shameful things to other humans in the past ie slavery, Auschwitz... the point is we should learn from it and never forget it happened. We don't bull bait anymore (?) because it was deemed inhumane, however rodeo is still ok? Slaughter houses? Fur farms? None of these are humane, so what makes dogfighting so much worse? I don't know.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Um thats a sad picture. The dog looks a mess and is being held by ropes like its some kind of dinosaur.

Anyways... there is also the Tosa from Japan.

They do not fight to the death and they are judged on temperament, stamina, and injuries inflicted.
 

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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Whats wrong with using a rope?

Obviously the owners are poor, it does not mean that they care less for the dog.
We see dogs in muzzles all the time in North America, in fact its the law here that all pitbull type dogs MUST be muzzled.

Its funny how someone doesn't want to be judged for breed choice but will freely judge someone from another country for using rope instead of a leash lol. The bully kutta is an ancient breed and the dog pictured is a beautiful rare specimen. Nothing in that picture indicates that the dog is being mistreated.

Tosas are beautiful dogs and I have had the pleasure of meeting a few in person, although very aloof, beautiful mastiffs. Tosa's, bully kuttas and fila's are all active guard dogs, working dogs, natural guardians, these breeds do not need to be taught how to guard as they are still actively working as guard dogs in their country of origin and there is nothing wrong with a working dog working. These breeds may not wear bows or live on a couch but they are beautiful natural breeds.

These breeds get ruined once North America starts importing them.
Why are there 2 ropes?

And I have to disagree with the whole north America ruins breeds things. I'm sure there are many that mistreated in their home countries as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
I frequently work my dogs on more than one line.
I must be a terrible owner eh?

Actually, Cairo was in a very similar situation today. Tied to a tree by a 15ft long line that was connected to his flat collar and had a six foot lead attached to his prong. He was also wearing a muzzle.
Guess I am going to dog owner hell.

You are being very judgmental over one picture that shows a dog with two ropes. I honestly don't get it.
What is so terrible about two ropes? You think the dog is handled like this all the time? You think this one picture shows you the span of this dog's entire life? Is it possible that this dog is about to work or train in some capacity?
Dont care about the muzzle and was merely wondering why there was two ropes.

Also, like Lisa said, Muslims don't think of dogs the same way we do here. So I highly highly doubt that dog is treated with any type of respect or kindness. It's just the way it is.

But who knows.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Im sorry to say when i was a kid ( 9 years old ) i was the caregiver for a fighting dog.. i was young and never was "allowed" ( thank god ) to see my dog fight. But i remember the day when my dog didnt come back home.. it was a very very sad day for me...

regardless of what name you put on it...dogs being forced to fight is wrong. If you think about it any other way then your disturbed individual.
MMM they aren't really being forced. They enjoy it. HOWEVER children enjoy biting people, doesn't mean we let them do.

If this was a private thread, I can guarantee we would be able to get more accurate information on it.

Point is, these dogs were developed to fight. Fight bears, bulls, other dogs, even mice. Had that idea never come up in someones crazy head back in the day, we would not have these breeds. Period. Every part about them from their heads to their toes was designed to make them better fighters. But, I do think the breed is very valuable in many way other than fighting, so its nice to see them in PP and SchH and agility and so on. I think we need to accept the past, but move on. It happened, it shouldnt anymore. Lets find other ways these dogs can be valuable to us (many people have).

Unfortunately, I don't think thats going to happen.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·

However, they DO NOT enjoy getting bites back.


I also have seen dogs hang back and cower if they thought another dog was going to hurt them.
They did not want an involvement in any type of altercation.
Yes this is true. That is not right.
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Sorry gotta comment on this tread, I'm an opinionated so and so.



Actually the dogs are forced and trained to fight from an early age. Many dogs are destroyed along the way. Here in Ireland many unwanted crossbreed dogs are prey for the pits in training.

Have you ever seen a dog after being discarded from the fighting rings? It's usually terrified and in really bad health. I don't really see how these dogs 'enjoy it'. There are usually no winners. Even if a dog wins a load of fights they will still be put up for more fights til they get a beating. That's the reason i think the owners don't love dogs period.

I don't think it's natural for a dog to kill another yet these people put the dogs in a position where they must kill or be killed.

Usually these fighting rings keep the dogs in terrible conditions without adequate food and water.

Basically it's pain and suffering for the dogs so perverted humans can get there kicks and have a gamble.
I agree with some of this. However, how come multiple bully households have to crate and rotate? Because their dogs fight. And won't stop fighting. The owners aren't forcing them, in fact, the owners would prefer them not to fight. So how come they do it?
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
I love diane jessup's site. She put things in a way I never understood before back when I wasn't accepting of the history of this breed.

And I agree with you ME that although it may be debatable that historical fighting was humane, I think we can all agree that the way thugs treat the sport is disgusting and inhumane.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
I have no experience or much knowledge to really comment on this. All i can say is dog fighting is horrible, the majority of people that do it today do it for money. They dont care about the well being of the dog and for that i think they're all BEEP BEEP BEEP. I do not condone it at all! NOT COOL! See i even censored my own words LOL.

On Another note, just to shed a tad bit of light on the Muslim community. My mother is Muslim, that whole side of my family is Muslim... they love dogs, we all love dogs, not just dogs, but animals in general really. There are some dog loving Muslims out there. My grandfather, who is as Muslim as they come (lol) has a gorgeous Siberian Husky that he loves more than anything! Dog is a queen in that house.
Interesting. I've spoken to a few Muslims before and they said that a dog is considered a dirty creature and they don't believe in owning them. But from what you are saying that sounds like bs...?
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Yea I figured. I just remember talking to a girl who explained it to me and she said it's a part of Muslim culture. But I guess she was mistaken.
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 ·
I used the drink everyday but I now I only allow myself to on Fridays and Saturday's. Alcohol can be very fattening. But I basically replaced wine with ice cream during the week. So it's not helping.
 
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