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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have read this several times.
Basically, the premise is, because I want just a pet, I do not need to qualify or prove my dog for breeding purposes. All I need to know is he is a great pet. I am producing pets, not monster biting dogs.

Well, let us look at this a bit closer. What qualities make up a GREAT pet. I am not talking about a shi##ing machine that just sleeps. A dream pet, right?

Intelligence - Can be obedience trained to a high degree
Courage - it is a freaking bulldog. Otherwise why not get a poodle or a lab?
EXTREME nerves - weak nerves is what causes 90% of dog bites. Fear biting. Strong nerves is what makes a dog confident and friendly.
SocialNo dog aggression
Protective - otherwise lab would have been a better choice.
Structurally sound - physically superior. An athlete. Otherwise get an english bulldog.
Genetic testing - make sure the dog is NOT passing on degenerative diseases like hip dysplasia

I don't think anyone can deny these qualities. YES. These are the qualities that make a great bulldog and a great pet.

Now how can I test for the above traits in an objective way. NOT JUST GUESS. REALLY, OBJECTIVELY TEST and CULL!!!!

In my mind, the only area that tests EACH of the above traits objectively is protection sports! These are the traits that make a great dog period. Pet or Otherwise!

A working protection dog MUST be social, protective, pass all genetic testing to trial, obviously be sound of structure, extremely intelligent to do the OB, no dog aggression, and have great nerves.
This idea of protection sport dogs being vicious is INSANE.
We don't dream about it...............we test the dog's traits every training session.
Many a time I have told a macho dude to take his vicious wanna be protection dog to the vet to be put down! Why? Because he will not make it and generally it shows bad nerves.

Like I said, breeding dogs is a very cruel endevour. You have to be totally honest and cold hearted. Why? Otherwise, look in the local papers. 200 dollar pit bulls. Free to good home. I wonder why so many problems with pits or any breed for that matter. I bet they were all trying to create good pets. LOL.

A dog must EARN AND PROVE his right to be bred. Because he has a big head and I like his coloring is NOT a good answer.

I have been through 6 dogs in 2 years. Why? Kept moving up, I suppose and I wanted to see what each bloodlines had to offer. Some did not make it genetically. One did not make it mentally. You take the dogs to the breaking point to see what they have. You reward them as being breed worthy. The result is (my opinion only LOL. they are my babies) dogs like Chucky and Ice. They were NOT bred as pets. However, they are the best pets I have ever had. Why? Because they have RETAINED the qualities of a working dog.

I hope that makes sense.
 

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Excellent post. I read your topic name and my blood pressure went sky high!!!....then I opened and read it... :oops:
 

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Great post Peter!!! You are right on the money as usual. If anything should be a "sticky" that post should be. :D Glad to see you here again!
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks.

Well, I was just suring during work and I saw your posts. You work your dogs. You understand real temperment in a dog. You know how stable they have to be in order for them to be trained. It is precisely the reason you DO NOT see many bully breeds in schutzhund, ring, or even real personal protection. Notice I said REAL personal protection. I am not talking about backyard agitation.

There seems to be a lot of nice folks here and many young people. I know about BSL. Seems to me, it is better to inform than to avoid.

To be sure, I am a firm believer in licencing THE OWNERS to own bully breeds. They have to complete a competency test (OB and control) before being able to own a dog. In fact, I advocated this to my city hall for ANY dog over 50lbs, not just bullys. THIS WOULD ELIMINATE ALL MORONS who should not own any dog. This process would infact totally eliminate BSL since it is not discriminatory.

Let us fact facts. If you cannot get your dog to sit, down for 3 minutes, and heel properly around strangers, YOU SHOULD NOT OWN A DOG.

Everyone's thoughts???
 

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Re: Thanks.

PeterC said:
To be sure, I am a firm believer in licencing THE OWNERS to own bully breeds. They have to complete a competency test (OB and control) before being able to own a dog. In fact, I advocated this to my city hall for ANY dog over 50lbs, not just bullys. THIS WOULD ELIMINATE ALL MORONS who should not own any dog. This process would infact totally eliminate BSL since it is not discriminatory.

Let us fact facts. If you cannot get your dog to sit, down for 3 minutes, and heel properly around strangers, YOU SHOULD NOT OWN A DOG.

Everyone's thoughts???

Well I think your idea of liscencing defintiely would eliminate alot of problems including BSL because it would eliminate the idiot owners who don't put the time into training and who don't understand dog behaviour !! However, I think even you know that a law such as that would be impossible to enact and enforce. Our governments definitely wouldn't have the resources to enact it let alone enforce it, so I think what we are left with is EDUCATING people. I know its probably not enough but what else are we REALLY able to do?

About the dog aggression. I just went back and re read your original post where you state that a good bulldog should have zero dog aggression. While I do realize that often times dog aggression is NERVE based, just like human aggression often is, but don't you think that often times its just dominance behaviour and a training issue? I bet there are probably lots of good quality AB"s out there that are dog aggressive wouldn't it be a shame to eliminate them from breeding because of that? Is that what you are saying? I agree dog aggression is a pain in the butt but I don't think it is always an indication of a weak dog. I believe sometimes it is but definitely not always. Personally my ideal bulldog would never go out looking for a fight but would stand up to a challenge but to say a bulldog who has dog aggression isn't a good dog is a bit of a stretch. Opinions please Peter? Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
dog aggression....

Well, I hate it.
I think a good AB is not just the dog, but I always see it as a team. A dog without the proper owner is nothing. A fantastic dog in the hands of an inept owner is garbage. why? A team is only as strong as its weakest link. Hell, I know I am the weak link in my partnership with my dogs. :lol:

In terms of dog aggression, I see it as being different than dominance or territoriality. Pits have NATURAL dog aggression. It is not dominance or territoriality. They LOVE to fight other dogs and animals. It is bred in them. This inate love of the fight (dogs), makes it difficult to train.

I do not expect my male to back off a challenge. However, I do expect him to listen to me when I have a ball or a tug. If the dog would rather kill another dog than play with me...........then, we have a problem. Many will say this is clear headedness.....workability.

Many bully breed owners' cards are already stacked against them. They have pits. Many do NOTHING to discourage this behavior. They think it is "cool". It is not. Rather, it is embarassing.

In my own case, Chucky has sent two dogs to the hospital. Loose dogs. He has ZERO threat display. He only bit when the dog was right on top of him and he could not take it anymore. Of course, I was screaming at the loose dog's owner! Now, is he dog aggressive? I would say no. Dominant as hell....YES. However, it applies to any animal that tries to stare him down, including any strangers (dog, human, whatever). The only exception to this rule is kids. Does he love to fight? Probably. However, I am the ALPHA. I have earned his respect through training and tons of love. AND I respect what he is.

I think dominance and pure dog aggression are two different things. I can use dominance. Dog aggression is useless.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
also......

I believe a dog can be aggressive because of pack mentality. Wolves kill other wolves that are not part of their pack. So, are these dog aggressive? No. They are acting as a pack. Their aggression stems from pack mentality of preserving the pack mentality.
 

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Re: dog aggression....

PeterC said:
Well, I hate it.
I think a good AB is not just the dog, but I always see it as a team. A dog without the proper owner is nothing. A fantastic dog in the hands of an inept owner is garbage. why? A team is only as strong as its weakest link. Hell, I know I am the weak link in my partnership with my dogs. :lol:

In terms of dog aggression, I see it as being different than dominance or territoriality. Pits have NATURAL dog aggression. It is not dominance or territoriality. They LOVE to fight other dogs and animals. It is bred in them. This inate love of the fight (dogs), makes it difficult to train.

I do not expect my male to back off a challenge. However, I do expect him to listen to me when I have a ball or a tug. If the dog would rather kill another dog than play with me...........then, we have a problem. Many will say this is clear headedness.....workability.

Many bully breed owners' cards are already stacked against them. They have pits. Many do NOTHING to discourage this behavior. They think it is "cool". It is not. Rather, it is embarassing.

In my own case, Chucky has sent two dogs to the hospital. Loose dogs. He has ZERO threat display. He only bit when the dog was right on top of him and he could not take it anymore. Of course, I was screaming at the loose dog's owner! Now, is he dog aggressive? I would say no. Dominant as hell....YES. However, it applies to any animal that tries to stare him down, including any strangers (dog, human, whatever). The only exception to this rule is kids. Does he love to fight? Probably. However, I am the ALPHA. I have earned his respect through training and tons of love. AND I respect what he is.

I think dominance and pure dog aggression are two different things. I can use dominance. Dog aggression is useless.
I think it is safe to say that we both feel that dog aggression is a training issue? I agree that its a pain in the a*s, and its definitely not something I want in my dogs. I also agree that a dog who responds to a challenge but doesn't instigate, is NOT dog aggressive. My dog Rosco, can not be bothered with other dogs unless they try and challenge him, then LOOK OUT! Now, that being said, say someone has a great bulldog, great prey drive, awesome nerve, super stable, social and friendly, can work through pressure on both ends of the lead, is healthy etc BUT it is dog aggressive and the handler cannot get a grasp on it? Training issue correct? Well, should a training issue prevent a great dog from being bred? It may prevent its owner from titling him/her but titles aren't always the be all and end all of a good dog. As long as the dog has been worked hard and tested in many different areas and its owner knows what their dog is made of in terms of character isn't that all that matters? I think it would be a shame that a dog like that be eliminated from a breeding program due to being dog agressive. Now, I do realize that often times dogs who have weak nerves are often dogs who act aggressively to other dogs as well as people, but I didn't think this was always the case? Just want to clear that part up as in your original post you stated that not being dog aggressive is a pre requisite for a great dog. Do you say this in terms of training or in terms of breeding or both? Like I said, I agree that I would rather have a non dog aggressive dog but do you feel this is something more than a training issue? Do you think that any AB that goes out looking for a fight lacks confidence or nerve? Very curious to hear your opinions. This topic is very interesting to me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
well, I see it like this. JMO.

I had some experience with real dog aggression. My bro has game pits in Taiwan. They are very meek and people friendly. Useless as guard dogs, understandably so. However, they will give their souls to kill another dog. Pure dog aggression. Joy of fighting another dog. It has nothing to do with male/female/territory. That is what I do not like. No amount of training can make such a dog workable. Now, since I want a working dog, even though the dog is a physical specimen, why would I breed it? That one factor makes it useless. Mindless dog aggression. I believe dominance can be controlled and used purposefully.

Now, knowing the pit blood in the AB, this mindless dog aggression pops up here and there, especially in the painter stuff.

Quote "It may prevent its owner from titling him/her but titles aren't always the be all and end all of a good dog."
DEFINITELY NOT! A title means virtually nothing to me. I have to see it. A sport protection training is FUN! However, the reason I train in it is to learn the techniques to create what I WANT. A utility dog. Sports teaches you training, imprinting, PATIENCE, humility, and so many other factors that you NEED to know to evaluate a dog, IMO. Do I care about a dog that bites a sleeve? Hell, no. Do I care a dog guarding a basket? Hell no. However, I do care about ABILITY to focus under distraction (dog aggression limits this), trainablility, nerves, courage, ability to take corrections, sooooo many more.
My dogs will never make ring III. However, at his job, he excels. Guarding my home and my family when I am away. In this job, I will put him against ANY schIII or ring III.

Quote "Just want to clear that part up as in your original post you stated that not being dog aggressive is a pre requisite for a great dog" Yes, I do believe that. A GREAT dog. A great dog in my mind cares about his work/his family more than going after a dog running around. How many GREAT dogs have you seen, Lisa. I have seen maybe three or four. All of them have been super dominant, but little Outright Dog aggressive.

Quote "Like I said, I agree that I would rather have a non dog aggressive dog but do you feel this is something more than a training issue?" I believe training can deal with dominance issue. I think it would be hard to train a game bred pit to not like to fight. That is why game bred pits never excel in protection work. Otherwise, everyone would be working them. They ARE PHYSICAL MARVELS.


quote "Do you think that any AB that goes out looking for a fight lacks confidence or nerve?"
No. It may just be a dominant sob. However, one has to understand WHY is he dominate? Territoriality? Pack? Protective of mistress or child? If he just goes out to kill everything he sees, then the dog has some screws loose and you know how I feel about taking care of those. I would put down EVERY dog that ever growls at a child. THAT SHOWS BAD NERVES. The problem with the working lines AB is that most do not look for fights. However, somehow, like magic, trouble finds them.
 

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Re: Thanks.

PeterC said:
To be sure, I am a firm believer in licencing THE OWNERS to own bully breeds. They have to complete a competency test (OB and control) before being able to own a dog. In fact, I advocated this to my city hall for ANY dog over 50lbs, not just bullys. THIS WOULD ELIMINATE ALL MORONS who should not own any dog. This process would infact totally eliminate BSL since it is not discriminatory.

Let us fact facts. If you cannot get your dog to sit, down for 3 minutes, and heel properly around strangers, YOU SHOULD NOT OWN A DOG.

Everyone's thoughts???
My husband and I have been having this discussion for over I year now. I completely agree with you, he on the other hand agrees with Lisa and says it could never be done. If the government can go out there and BAN and entire breed of dog (or any who look like them), then they could find a way to do this. The problem is, would they want to? They actually have it in their heads (allong with a lot of their $$$ supporters) that APBTs are vicious killing machines. They are so ignorant that they don't understand it's due to the breeding and training of the dog.

Also I believe that you should need a breeding licence to breed. This wouldn't stop all BYBs but it would cut down by a great percentage, IMO. If these things were intact, I wouldn't worry so much about the future of the AB.
 

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Re: well, I see it like this. JMO.

PeterC said:
I had some experience with real dog aggression. My bro has game pits in Taiwan. They are very meek and people friendly. Useless as guard dogs, understandably so. However, they will give their souls to kill another dog. Pure dog aggression. Joy of fighting another dog. It has nothing to do with male/female/territory. That is what I do not like. No amount of training can make such a dog workable. Now, since I want a working dog, even though the dog is a physical specimen, why would I breed it? That one factor makes it useless. Mindless dog aggression. I believe dominance can be controlled and used purposefully.

Now, knowing the pit blood in the AB, this mindless dog aggression pops up here and there, especially in the painter stuff.

Quote "It may prevent its owner from titling him/her but titles aren't always the be all and end all of a good dog."
DEFINITELY NOT! A title means virtually nothing to me. I have to see it. A sport protection training is FUN! However, the reason I train in it is to learn the techniques to create what I WANT. A utility dog. Sports teaches you training, imprinting, PATIENCE, humility, and so many other factors that you NEED to know to evaluate a dog, IMO. Do I care about a dog that bites a sleeve? Hell, no. Do I care a dog guarding a basket? Hell no. However, I do care about ABILITY to focus under distraction (dog aggression limits this), trainablility, nerves, courage, ability to take corrections, sooooo many more.
My dogs will never make ring III. However, at his job, he excels. Guarding my home and my family when I am away. In this job, I will put him against ANY schIII or ring III.

Quote "Just want to clear that part up as in your original post you stated that not being dog aggressive is a pre requisite for a great dog" Yes, I do believe that. A GREAT dog. A great dog in my mind cares about his work/his family more than going after a dog running around. How many GREAT dogs have you seen, Lisa. I have seen maybe three or four. All of them have been super dominant, but little Outright Dog aggressive.

Quote "Like I said, I agree that I would rather have a non dog aggressive dog but do you feel this is something more than a training issue?" I believe training can deal with dominance issue. I think it would be hard to train a game bred pit to not like to fight. That is why game bred pits never excel in protection work. Otherwise, everyone would be working them. They ARE PHYSICAL MARVELS.


quote "Do you think that any AB that goes out looking for a fight lacks confidence or nerve?"
No. It may just be a dominant sob. However, one has to understand WHY is he dominate? Territoriality? Pack? Protective of mistress or child? If he just goes out to kill everything he sees, then the dog has some screws loose and you know how I feel about taking care of those. I would put down EVERY dog that ever growls at a child. THAT SHOWS BAD NERVES. The problem with the working lines AB is that most do not look for fights. However, somehow, like magic, trouble finds them.
Thanks for sharing your point of view Peter. I think for the most part we are on the same page. Just thought it would be interesting to discuss it in more detail. BTW why don't you think your dogs will make it to a Ring III? Just curious.
 

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Licensing won't work. Because that would set the ball rolling for other governmental intervention. Once that starts where would it end?? License you to be able to go to the dump to drop off trash......need a license to work on your car. Who knows! Realistically, those aren't any further off mark than a license to own an animal. You can pollute the environment when you work on a car. Kind of like the license they require for working with freon and such.
We don't want the government to start licensing stuff or we will have them deeper into our homes and looking over our sholder all the time. Just wait until GM starts granting the government access to the black boxes they put into their vehicles. They will start sending you tickets in the mail for speeding and excessive acceleration.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Sounds like you hate the government.

Why?

So, I guess you don't have a driver's licence.

How about a hunter's permit or fishing licence?

Listen. Law abiding citizens who are responsible owners WHO TRAIN THEIR DOGS would not fear such laws.

Let me put it this way. Would you rather have a licencing program or a breed ban. You pick.
 

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PeterC said:
Sounds like you hate the government.

Why?

So, I guess you don't have a driver's licence.

How about a hunter's permit or fishing licence?

Listen. Law abiding citizens who are responsible owners WHO TRAIN THEIR DOGS would not fear such laws.

Let me put it this way. Would you rather have a licencing program or a breed ban. You pick.
There is a flaw in this logic Peter. I mean this as diplomatically as possible BTW.

First off, law abiding citizens who train their dogs are already the one's who pay the price when a ban comes into affect. They were never the problem in the first place. So a licensing program will do nothing except generate money for some (which?????) govt. agency, as the people who never gave a crap about the law will just continue to ingnore it.

Next, when the licensing program fails to work (as it will, since the same people who will obey it are the ones that were never a problem to begin with), the next step will be bans or insurance requirements or whatever. This will again fall on the shoulders of people who were already responsible before the licensing program went into effect.

So while most people would prefer a liscensing program (I know I would), due to the cost of effectively enforcing it, it would only eventually become the groundwork of a ban. It would work if enforced (perfect world), but you know politicians. When it doesn't work, the lack of enforcement of one of their little pieces of paper will never be admitted to being the problem. The blame will ultimately fall on the compliant citizens that, "obviously can't be trusted with these dogs".

Education and community awareness would have a bigger impact, but those aren't a politicians excuse for existence. Therefore you will never catch a politician putting stock in anything like that.....they only put stock in things that validate their position. If they didn't, it wouldn't be long until people realized most politicians aren't really needed. It's kinda like the saying, "If it weren't for laywers, we wouldn't need lawyers."

I just want to say again that I meant this as diplomatically as it can be taken.
 

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Peter,
I'm moving this to the Breeding section. Great post, with good information. I think it will benefit the forum more if it's in that section.
 

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Led said:
Licensing won't work. Because that would set the ball rolling for other governmental intervention. Once that starts where would it end?? License you to be able to go to the dump to drop off trash......need a license to work on your car. Who knows! Realistically, those aren't any further off mark than a license to own an animal. You can pollute the environment when you work on a car. Kind of like the license they require for working with freon and such.
We don't want the government to start licensing stuff or we will have them deeper into our homes and looking over our sholder all the time. Just wait until GM starts granting the government access to the black boxes they put into their vehicles. They will start sending you tickets in the mail for speeding and excessive acceleration.
Just had to say, here we do need to pay and get a "license to drop off trash at the dump!! Just ffod for theought1!Had to add that!!!Lol!
 
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