[Zippitydodaa]

Brodie is owner protective according to the vet. He would bark and hackles raised at anyone in the room IF and only IF my husband was in the room too. When he was out of the room, or when they took Brodie into the back, he was happy go lucky dog, pleased and wagging to get pets from everyone and anyone. So. . . now the question is: How do I deal with that? Should I socialize him more? Is it too late now he is 1 year old? Should I train him to become more protective so he is actually trained and it doesnt just turn into people aggression? The vet was very adamant that it was NOT people aggression, but simply protective of Ben (my husband), and it was not directed just at people, but at other animals too. Ive seen that before too, when I took Brodie to pick up my girls from school. . . he was acting strange. However, he does not do that when we have people over to the house. . . Anyway, advice and thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[PeterC]

Here is a feebie.

Bring him UP to vancouver. Let me see him.

I am in Vancouver Canada. NOt too far.

Hard to say until you see how he behaves with you and your husband together.

If he is protective, then we can simulate a scenario to see which behavior brings this on (turns on this behavior), so you know exactly when and HOW he turns on. KNowing this, can can modify your behavior or his, if it is unwarranted.

His hackles going up is a BAD sign. I would never Protection train a dog that will growl or hackles up during a confrontation with such low threshhold. The dog would never make it when pressure is give. I do not think it is even fair to subject a sweet dog to this work. Some dogs are bred to protect. Some are not. So, give up on that idea. Sound like a defensive dog with low threashhold. However, who knows. If you bring him up, I will tell you.

Too bad you are not in Eugene oregon. I know of a guy who is just awesome at this stuff. One of the best.

I don't think this is a big deal. The dog loves his daddy. Make sure the dog knows that aggressive behavior is NOT acceptable to your husband.

By the way, vets are not dog trainers. Go to a dog trainer.

 

[Zippitydodaa]

Good thoughts. . . I might just bring him to you, Vancouver is only about a 3 hour drive, and it is a beautiful city! A great excuse to go visiting. . . however I will have to find my passport, or I cant get back into the US. *rolls eyes* stupid government. . . Ive had many urges to become Canadian. We will talk more about the possibility of coming your way!

 

[Lisa]

I agree with Peter.

Veterinarians are not trainers they are doctors of veterinary medicine. Why they give training advice to people is beyond me. I also agree with the hackles. Big time sign of insecurity. Why would a confident dog feel like it needs to make itself larger? I really think the term "protective" is WAY over used. Like Peter said, a dog like that would probably never make a protection dog. They're all bluff. They are putting on a threat display because they want to avoid a true confrontation. Confident dogs don't need to put on such a show. Good luck with Brodie and if you can, head up and see Peter. He knows his stuff!!

 

[Zippitydodaa]

Cool, thanks Lisa for your response. I will have to get you guys a picture about his fur when he does this. I swear he might have some rhodesian ridgeback in him somewhere because he literally gets a mohawk down his entire back. I talked with my trainer about it back when he was in puppy kindergarten, but she felt that the way he was playing with the other puppies that he was just expressive. . . she didnt see it as a problem. So, I would be very curious to get a good opinion on it. Thanks!

 

[Lisa]

Cool, thanks Lisa for your response. I will have to get you guys a picture about his fur when he does this. I swear he might have some rhodesian ridgeback in him somewhere because he literally gets a mohawk down his entire back. I talked with my trainer about it back when he was in puppy kindergarten, but she felt that the way he was playing with the other puppies that he was just expressive. . . she didnt see it as a problem. So, I would be very curious to get a good opinion on it. Thanks!

No problem, but I don't think you don't need to post a picture, I think Peter and i know what raised hackles look like. :wink: Any breed of dog that is feeling insecure or like Peter says has a low defensive threshold will get this. Defintiely not desireable and I would consider it a weakness. Dogs do this because they want to make themselves appear larger to something that they feel is a threat to them. What were the qualifications of the instructor at puppy kindergaren? I find it strange that an experienced trainer would say its just your puppy being "expressive". :-k My guess is that person is pretty green.

 

[vodka6483]

kaiser my male ab is the very confident he will try and dominate and wont back down to nothing as of yet but he is also very calm but his hair stands up when hes angry and sorry theres no way hes insecure.

 

[Zippitydodaa]

Ahh ok, she has a website actually, its www.goodcitizencanine.com if you are interested. I wasnt trying to say that YOU didnt know what the hackles raised looked like, more that *I* am not sure if thats what you all mean. I think of hackles being more around the shoulders? This line of fur that he raises goes all the way down his back even to his tail? She didnt seem to see any evidence of his being unconfident, because I asked her specifically about it...

 

[Lisa]

Raised hackles are an indication of low irritability (defence) threshold. Defence is the weakest of ALL drives. When a dog is in defence it is feeling threatened not confident! For more insight into raised hackles and what they mean check out these quotes from a couple different articles. You may actually want to read them in their entirity. Very good reads!!

From Elements of Temperament-Drives, Thresholds, and Nerves by Joy Tiz MS JD

Watch out for growling! That is never good news. Confident dogs don’t growl at people or objects. Hackles up is another giveaway that the dog is frightened. People are always telling me they’ve got good watchdogs because every time the dog hears a noise, the dog growls at puts his hackles up. They’re dreaming.

http://www.dogstuff.info/elements_of_temperament_nerves.html


From The Components of Strong Working Dog Temperament by Dominick Donovan

The irritablilty threshold is the amount of psychological stress (not physical stress) the dog can withstand while in the state of reactive aggression (defence) before exhibiting signs of conflict or flight behaviour.

Conflict is the crossover stage between fight and flight. The ordinary signs of conflict include:

Raising of hackles
low tail carraige
obvious high pitch tone of bark indicating stress
any signs of withdrawl or retreat on the part of the dog

http://www.workingdogs.com/dom1.htm

 

[PeterC]

People REALLY cannot read their own dogs.

"my male ab is the very confident he will try and dominate and wont back down to nothing as of yet but he is also very calm but his hair stands up when hes angry and sorry theres no way hes insecure."

DEAD WRONG. Sometimes, a dog taking a new bite on a strange decoy will do this, but it MUST calm down and overcome the insecurity. Otherwise, IT WILL GO INTO AVOIDANCE WITH ADDED PRESSURE. Your dog may overcome it. It may not. However, it is insecure it its hackles are going up.

When this usually happens, I tell the prospective owner that it is not fair to subject this dog to such pressure. He does not enjoy it. PP dogs enjoy the work. They are happy. They are in prey aggression mode.

This is a different picture than the ideal candidate that will bite for the sheer joy of it. High in prey aggression and fight drive. In fight drive, the dog does not have hackles up. A dog ready to kick some a## is happy and excited. He wants to engage. He is NOT going to warn the adversary to go away by growling. showing teeth, and hackles all up.

When my boy sees confrontation coming (car jacking scenario, for example), he is so happy I get beaten up by his tail wags.

For ANYONE wishing to read their dog better. Read Decoys and Aggression.
It is a facinating read because it teaches the language of the dog. One of the BEST books out there.
http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DGT219&AffiliateID=45071&Method=3

 

[Lisa]

DEAD WRONG. Sometimes, a dog taking a new bite on a strange decoy will do this, but it MUST calm down and overcome the insecurity. Otherwise, IT WILL GO INTO AVOIDANCE WITH ADDED PRESSURE. Your dog may overcome it. It may not. However, it is insecure it its hackles are going up.

The funny thing is I don't even think Vodka does any personal protection training with his dogs (however I could be wrong) so I am not sure how he would know his dog won't" back down". Vodka, has someone actually physically threatened your dog? Put some REAL pressure on it? If its hackles are going up when your dog is "angry" the odds are that with a little bit of pressure your dog would go right into FLIGHT mode. Confident dogs that will truly protect don't raise their hackles when confronted!

 

[vodka6483]

no i havent started schutzhund with my dogs yet. but i do test my dogs with different confrontations to see how they act.
and if the hackles are a sign of insecurity how come dogs get it when they are excited aswell just today a male staff ran over to my friends bitch from the other side of the field and the male was flirting but his hackles where up is that a sign of insecurity? peter c could you explain to me because i think the way you explain yourself is more like advice not like your talking down to people because you know something they dont.
i think i understand what you mean about enjoying the situation but my dog does seem to enjoy sleeve work.
when he see's the other dog doing the sleeve he gets all worked up and when its his turn he's full of determination and his bite is very deep for an 8 mnth old dog.
and yes kaiser has been put under serious stress and hes never backed down but thinking about it his hackles weren't up its only with other dogs, his tail will stand, he'll hold his head high and growl and bark.
im going to order a schutzhund training book to start teaching the commands so when i do go they will know what i mean but is there any other training books that give that kind of info?

 

[Lisa]

Vodka, I thought you said you haven't started your Schutzhund training yet? Who is giving your dogs bites on sleeves? What type of "Serious stress" has your dog been put under? If you want to do personal protection or Schutzhund training join a club. If you try doing this yourself it is going to backfire on you.

 

[vodka6483]

stress by people attacking him and the sleeve work we do scenarios what people might encounter in a city.
how will it backfire? explain

 

[Lisa]

How old is your dog Vodka and what type of foundation was put on your dog before you started this defence work?

 

[vodka6483]

ok here we go getting technical, like ive said i havent done schutzhund yet so the situations ive put him under at first were obviously alot less stessful but as he coped with everything i made the tests harder to see how much pressure he can handle for an 8 mth old dog and he has dealt with everything ive put to him so i contacted the closest schutzhund club near me which is bolton but its moved to leigh and i told them what ive been doing and they said bring him down so not this sat but next i'll take him down there. and i dont just do defensive situations i play games to enhance his prey drive aswell

 

[Lisa]

ok here we go getting technical, like ive said i havent done schutzhund yet so the situations ive put him under at first were obviously alot less stessful but as he coped with everything i made the tests harder to see how much pressure he can handle for an 8 mth old dog and he has dealt with everything ive put to him so i contacted the closest schutzhund club near me which is bolton but its moved to leigh and i told them what ive been doing and they said bring him down so not this sat but next i'll take him down there. and i dont just do defensive situations i play games to enhance his prey drive aswell

Doing protection work IS technical. There are many steps that need to be taken to get a properly trained protection dog. First of all, you don't put an 8 month old puppy into defence. Especially an 8 month old lacking a proper foundation. What i mean by that is when you start protection training you work the dog in prey. Young/green dogs don't need to be put into defence. Dogs that are young and green should be first taught how to grip and target the sleeve properly first and formost. You do this by putting a dog on a post and working it in prey. By doing this you make it feel confident. You make it feel like it is going to kick some ass. There really aren't too many 8 month old puppies that will be able to handle being worked in defence, especially one with no foundation training. Your dog may look good when it is first done to it but that threat will often remain etched in their brain and the next time it is confronted with a similar situation is it going to go into FLIGHT because they can't handle the stress. It is too much for them. Especially a dog already showing signs of stress and conflict (hackles up). If you continue this backyard "training" with your dog you are going to ruin it. You are also risking your dog becoming overly reactive and possibly biting someone for no reason because you put too much stress on it at a young age and without first lying a proper foundation. You will teach your dog bad habits in terms of gripping and targetting because you and the person taking the bites probably don't understand how to properly teach a dog how to bite a sleeve. The person giving the bites to the dog probably has no clue as to what types of things to do to promote confidence and full grips or how to teach a dog to target the centre of the sleeve and to do so without being "Chewy" on the bite. You are no doubt teaching your dog some very bad habits.

I know you are probably going to take offence to my post , I expect it, but this is precisely why I feel training equipment used in teaching dogs to bite (sleeves, suits, tugs, etc) should not be sold to just anyone. Do the people who want you evicted from your apartment know the type of "training" you are doing with your dog? You trying to do this kind of thing on your own with minimal understanding is dangerous and irresponsible. I don't even need to ask who is helping you with your "training" because anyone who has done this type of work with their dogs KNOWS that 8 month old puppies should not be threatened and worked in defence! That is common knowledge amongst true protection trainers and the little you have told me tells me alot about the person helping you do this "work" with your dog. You are creating a liability by having your puppy threatened and trying to teach it to bite on your own. Short cuts should never be taken when teaching a dog bite work! Do it safely and correctly or do not do it at all. Please, for the sake of all us bully owners find a proefessional trainer who knows how to teach dogs to bite correctly and understands that not all dogs have the correct temperament for this type of work and who are not scared to tell people their dog is not cut out for it.

 

[vodka6483]

what your saying about making him target the sleeve and prey drive by teasing him is the basics thats already been done like i said he gets a full deep bite into the sleeve. i'll read more now.
oh i forgot to mention the person who i do the scenarios with is my friends uncle who is in your situation he has 2 gsd's awho are sch trained thats whos got the sleeve.
and what makes you think that i dont know what im doing and my training is minimal? you sarcastic b£$ch. i have admitted im a beginner wasn't you once and i know that the wrong training methods can destroy a dog thats why i train with my friends uncle.
do you think your the only person who knows about training dogs? do you think you get everything perfect?
and why do you think im in the process of getting into a proper sch club? theres a word for you but i cant think of it yet but dont worry i'll post it. why do you only post here i know its not to give advice because you attack and assume. why dont you post with true protection trainers as you put it is it because your a begginer yourself or an intermediate.
i despise women who think there better than every one else.

 

[Lisa]

what your saying about making him target the sleeve and prey drive by teasing him is the basics thats already been done like i said he gets a full deep bite into the sleeve. i'll read more now.
oh i forgot to mention the person who i do the scenarios with is my friends uncle who is in your situation he has 2 gsd's awho are sch trained thats whos got the sleeve.
and what makes you think that i dont know what im doing and my training is minimal? you sarcastic b£$ch. i have admitted im a beginner wasn't you once and i know that the wrong training methods can destroy a dog thats why i train with my friends uncle.
do you think your the only person who knows about training dogs? do you think you get everything perfect?

Who is training your dog and what are their credentials?

 

[vodka6483]

cant you read?
do you train dogs full time?
like i stated his dogs are trained and he has been going through the basics with me. he didnt go to a sch club he had a personal trainer training his dogs and he still does. so what hes learned he is passing it on to me