Ive got question on breeders vs byb

13465 Views 50 Replies 22 Participants Last post by Hammer, May 10, 2006

My3Blullys

Discussion Starter · Apr 9, 2006

I am not starting this topic to start trouble. I have seen a lot of byb dogs and a lot of proffessonal breed dogs. A lot of people on here rip the byb's new asses but never hear anything bad about the kennels etc. The reason of me bringing this up is most of the muntant looking dogs I see are from kennels.THese being the 100 pound apbt's , lowriders, etc. They are charging an arm and leg for these dogs that look horrid and half are probally mutts. I am not saying every kennel is this way but it seems like a lot are. To prove my point go to yahoo or google and do a search for an apbt pup. Now to get at the byb point of view. My dog and several other dogs on the forum and people I know are breed from byb's. They seem to look better and more standered than most i can find in kennels. They are a 1/4 of the price on top of that. That being said is probally one the reasons byb's get so much support. I am not saying every kennel is bad but on the same hand i am not saying every byb is bad thats just my opinion.I know everyone on here has opinions of thier own so whats yours with theese point of views being stated? Also lets be civil about this and not start a bunch of trouble and get this thread locked and people fighting.

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yungster

· #21 · Apr 9, 2006

Slightly off topic, but Gotti and RE really should start calling their dogs something other than APBTs. RE's are mixed with Neapolitan Mastiffs far down the line, if I've read correctly. I don't know what mutant the Gotti dogs are mixed with...maybe EB (they're the ones with the deformed shoulders and bowed legs, right?) Not saying EBs look like that, but they are stocky and low to the ground like that.

As far as quality working dogs, your best source would probably be a quality breeder/kennel who has PROVEN their dogs. As for quality pets, you can go to the pound and find a great pet... no titles/papers needed.

attitude

· #22 · Apr 9, 2006

Champ_and_jas said:
I am not starting this topic to start trouble. I have seen a lot of byb dogs and a lot of proffessonal breed dogs. A lot of people on here rip the byb's new asses but never hear anything bad about the kennels etc. The reason of me bringing this up is most of the muntant looking dogs I see are from kennels.THese being the 100 pound apbt's , lowriders, etc. They are charging an arm and leg for these dogs that look horrid and half are probally mutts. I am not saying every kennel is this way but it seems like a lot are. To prove my point go to yahoo or google and do a search for an apbt pup. Now to get at the byb point of view. My dog and several other dogs on the forum and people I know are breed from byb's. They seem to look better and more standered than most i can find in kennels. They are a 1/4 of the price on top of that. That being said is probally one the reasons byb's get so much support. I am not saying every kennel is bad but on the same hand i am not saying every byb is bad thats just my opinion.I know everyone on here has opinions of thier own so whats yours with theese point of views being stated? Also lets be civil about this and not start a bunch of trouble and get this thread locked and people fighting.

just because you have a website/kennel name/call yourself proffesional does not mean you aren't a byb. being a byb is a "state of mind" not a size or financial thing.
it is kinda like the thread of "how many litters" truthfully there is no "right" answer to that question, i only posted the question to get folks thinking. one litter a year and you can be a byb, big website and all the hype in the world and you can be a byb.

Chynasmom

· #23 · Apr 9, 2006

Define your terms

If by "professional" you mean that the majority of one's income comes from breeding/selling dogs, then most of the big kennels are "professional."

I tend to use "responsible" versus "irresponsible" to avoid the assumption that the size of a kennel or how long it's been in existence or how fancy it's web site/advertisements/etc are is somehow linked to whether they are breeding with the aim of bettering the breed.

Naturally, this designation is purely in my own opinion.

In order for a particular dog to be deemed "breeding quality" I would expect that the breeder has established that the dog is representative in physical type, of stable temperament, and able to perform the tasks for which the breed was developed. If the original tasks are no longer applicable, then I would expect that the breeder has established general trainability of the dog and suitability for some other task. (For example, I would not expect a breeder of Irish Wolfhounds to prove that his dogs by shipping them to Ireland and hunting wolves. Lure coursing, obedience/Rally, or agility training are possible alternatives.) And yes, I include "family companion" as a viable task (suitability proven by obedience training or similar). Since the best way to establish these things is through competition or similar judging by an independent authority, I would expect to see the breeder's dogs titled in conformation AND some performance sport.

I realize this is a pretty high bar. That's why both of my dogs are rescues - one from the SPCA and the other from a local group.

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Tia

· #24 · Apr 10, 2006

In my opinion a "BYB" or in my eyes "Irresponsable" breeder is a breeder who doesnt have a consistently well bred line. The litters should be consistent,healthy and the whole litter or majority should be confident,healthy, and be of type of a AB.They should have the drive to do ANY kind of work.The parents should be tested and known by the BREEDER not someone they pay, or by Other trainers who have bought puppies. So THEY know what to look for and KNOW what they are breeding. Anyone who takes this time on the parents,pups and their line. In my books are good breeders. Of course doing all this testing,training and knowledge of your line, wouldnt give you awhole of time to pump put Garbage puppies. This would be breeder breeding rarely.
Anyone who goes to a breeders home and goes to pick out a puppy, and if 3 puppies dont come running up to you out of the litter, stay away! the litter should be CONSISTENT. well bred.
"pick of the litter" is a sales thing. Stay away!!! Pick of the litter is what breeders do to make more money, and sell "THE PICK" 10 times over. If you r a good breeder bredding consistent in type,health,temperament,work ability. then the whole litter in a whole should ALL BE WORTHY. if it isnt SHOULDNT be repeated

jmo

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Lisas1

· #25 · Apr 10, 2006

I just came across this on another forum.
Comparison of traits of a responsible breeder vs. BYB
http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html

Bremner53

· #26 · Apr 10, 2006

sajoseph said:
-HOWEVER- nobody out there would be able to afford a "pet" anymore either.

I just wanted to throw this in, I paid the same price for Dozer (BYB) as I did for Lucy, and I consider the place she came from pretty good. They did all the health testing, and worked their dogs, and this was their first litter and they have had AB's for YEARS!

Chynasmom

· #27 · Apr 10, 2006

sajoseph said:
"Professional breeders" are breeders who complete EVERY step of the cycle for breeding. Titleing both parents the best they can be, every health step taken in the book prior to breeding. Culling the pups who may not be worthy.Breeding only to pass along perfect genes.

Botttem line, if there were no BYbs and just professional breeders out there, the dog population would be greatly reduced-HOWEVER- nobody out there would be able to afford a "pet" anymore either.

I myself is considered a byb. My dog was not health tested nor titled before her breeding. I have 7 beautiful puppies from her. I have 1 with an over bite, definatly big and noticable. I will try to use this dog for obed or wp, and hopefully we will succeed. He will however never be worthy of conformation. You tell me......If he accels at earning great titles from another sport, is he NOT WORTHY of breeeding???

4 points:

- If by "culling" you mean preventing dogs who do not meet breed standards because of non-health-related faults (i.e. your dog with the overbite, a mismarking or disqualifying eye color, or less-than-ideal structure) from entering the gene pool by using spay/neuter contracts, I'm with you. But I would not accept putting puppies down for non-health-related faults.

- Yes, if we could end the irresponsible breeding we would reduce the dog population. But with over a million dogs killed EACH YEAR for lack of homes, I don't see how this is a bad thing.

- I have not encountered responsible breeders who overcharge for their dogs. Yes, most average in the $800-$1500 area (depending on breed), but this is pretty reasonable considering the costs that a RESPONSIBLE breeder incurs as s/he develops a dog, titles her, breeds her and then tends to the puppies - leaving aside the financial costs if something goes wrong during the pregnancy! I've seen plenty of irresponsible breeders charging just as much for their pups without all the backup. Worse, they charge more for dogs with OBVIOUS flaws and call them "rare color" or "oversized" or "teacup"!! There are some responsible breeders who charge less for a "pet quality" dog (with spay/neuter contract) who will be a splendid family companion but lacks something essential for "breedability" (a gun shy pointer, a parti-colored poodle, a boxer with too much white, etc.). (edited to add

Maybe if the average owner had to put more time and thought into GETTING a dog, they'd be more likely to put some effort into TRAINING so that the dog has a chance to become a lifelong member of the family? I know people who put more time and thought into their car purchase than into getting a dog!

- Regarding your pup with a "big and noticable" overbite. In my opinion, even if he excells at obedience or weight pulling or whatever, he is NOT worth breeding. If we want to be breeding only the BEST dogs, then that excludes those with "big and noticeable" faults such as an overbite. If his bite were SLIGHTLY off, and he was excellent in other aspects, that would be different. Again, JMO.

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rebelroseabs

· #28 · Apr 11, 2006

Wow, you guys have me totally confused! So if you keep pups from your breedings you are a good breeder but if you don't title your dogs first you are a backyard breeder, if you have a website you could be a backyard breeder or a good breeder, if your dogs are registered you could be either, if you advertise in Dog World you could be either.....

I would really like for you all to analyse me and let me know what you think about whether I am a backyard breeder or a good breeder or a professional breeder...

I have 12 dogs, 9 American Bulldogs and 3 Oldes, some of them have had their hips x-rayed and some haven't, some of them have been showed, some haven't, last year we had 2 litters, 9 pups all together, sold 6 kept 3, this year we've had one pup, we still have her, she is for sale, she has a red nose, I'd keep her but I have 2 other females with red noses and I actually prefer black noses, I have trained some of them to do basic obedience and I have done a bit of bitework with some of them, I don't have any serious health issues, I've replaced a couple of puppies for leg problems but the pups problems weren't really diagnosed 100% and they haven't re-occured in subsequent litters. I sell alot of my dogs because I am not completely happy with the way they turn out and I decide that I don't want to reproduce pups that have those characteristics, I have given puppies away to pet homes because I don't think that they are saleable, I haven't been able to kill them. I have become a conformation judge since I started in the AB's, I bought a registry and I have built the largest most popular AB website in the world (I, means me and my hubby really) I host shows, I judge and I spend hours and hours everyday immersed in the bulldog world. My food bill is about $400 month. The money I spend going to shows is lots. I would like to make more money selling puppies so that I can afford more things for the dogs, like I want to build a building and fence in a huge area, actually I'd like to build each pair of dogs a cool little house with their own porch and a nice big fenced area with water lines so that they have fresh cold water all day, I'd also like to be able to afford to go to an expensive trainer and maybe even pay someone to handle my dogs and show them so that I can get more titles, I'd like to buy a camper to go to more shows and I'd like to have more money to fly all over and visit other kennels and chat with other cool breeders, I'd like to hire a kennel hand to help scoop poop and excericise and train dogs and keep me company while I do everything... if I had more money I'd put it all back into the dogs, my kids, house, yard, etc. the dogs, kids, husband, family and friends are my greatest source of enjoyment.

Here is my idea about what a good breeder is, someone that is involved in the breed, takes time to learn, takes good care of their animals, helps to welcome newcomers and give them some education, is always available to their puppy buyers when they have questions down the road, tries to find good homes for their pups, gives the potential owners a good idea about the breed and what kind of care they need, helps out with rescue, goes to shows to find out who the other people involved in the breed are and compare their dogs with what else is out there, reads up on new tests that are available, knows what genetic conditions exist in the breed, I guess I have answered my own question based on my own ideas, thanks for reading.

You guys are so hard on others, sit back, relax and enjoy life, try to see the good in people not just the bad. Nobody's perfect, no dog is perfect... just try your best

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attitude

· #29 · Apr 11, 2006

"
You guys are so hard on others, sit back, relax and enjoy life, try to see the good in people not just the bad. Nobody's perfect, no dog is perfect... just try your best "

i am only as hard on others as i am on myself. welcome to the board lesli.

"I don't have any serious health issues"

as you don't list it, can i ask what health testing you are doing?

as i have stated b4 on this forum i feel that first you test the dog (health, temperament, working and show ) then you breed.

"no dog is perfect"

this is true but i have seen a (very) few that come darn close

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rebelroseabs

· #30 · Apr 11, 2006

Hello Cathy,

I have x-rayed hips, Blue, Savvy, Sally, Pumper, Cherry, Gypsy, Bud, Sugar, a pup out of Bossy Babe

I have culled for things like, nose too long, nose too short, feet too splayed, one nut, can't breathe, can't breed effectively, most recently a pup I bought from someone had entropian, cow hocks, easty westy front legs/feet, growth plate problem...

I've gotten rid of dogs because they are too hard to keep, like they run too much and they are always skinny, they just needed a different environment. My dogs are outside in big pens so they have lots of room to move and some of them just never stopped. I sold one once because it barked too much, even with a bark collar on.

When I say culled I mean either sold or placed, I don't usually put them down unless it is really bad, I did that once for HD, and once because the female was too dog aggressive to live with a family, I never feel bad about selling or placing dogs, contrary to popular belief most dogs are not loyal and they are happy as little pigs in their new homes within a few short days, every dog that I have ever acquired has adjusted quickly and happily. Sometimes we think dogs are like us but they are not, as long as they have food/water and a nice place to sleep and some time to get some exercise/play they are thrilled, they like a few good scratches too.

We only have so much room so if they don't cut the mustard they gotta go, especially because I always like to keep something from the litters, I have just started placing dogs with people that I trust and I will be able to use in my breeding program in the future, again only if they cut the mustard so I will have access to more dogs, to breed well you have to have access to lots of dogs so that you can pick out the best from the bunch.

Like I said before, we haven't had many problems with the pups that we have produced, I don't know if it is luck or it is because we are so picky when it comes to which dogs we keep to breed. I want to produce dogs that are healthy, easy keepers, stable temperments and conformationally correct.

I don't test for NCL or CERF, so far these two things haven't been an issue in my dogs or in dogs of my closest breeder friends but as the years go by I'm sure things will change and what I do will change. I know that in some areas/bloodlines it is becoming a problem but so far we're good.

We have never encountered mange or wry jaw or cancer or heart problems, thyroid and the list goes on...

We had a couple of hare lips but they died fast because they couldn't suck properly, some of them just take themselves out of the gene pool.

We've never had a problem placing the puppies because of the exposure our kennel gets on the big website, I think that is another important thing for breeders to do, always try and have more buyers than pups so that you can make the best choices about where the pups go.

I think most people should just be pet owners, they just aren't into it enough to do it right but I'm not going to try and stop someone from trying it, how can I when I know how much enjoyment I get from this life, I'm going to just help as much as I can. Most people that get into breeding get in and out in less than 5 years, it is tough, lots of hours and hard work and they realize that the easy money from having a few puppies really isn't that easy.

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peeblerelf

· #31 · Apr 11, 2006

rebelroseabs said:
Wow, you guys have me totally confused! So if you keep pups from your breedings you are a good breeder but if you don't title your dogs first you are a backyard breeder, if you have a website you could be a backyard breeder or a good breeder, if your dogs are registered you could be either, if you advertise in Dog World you could be either.....

I would really like for you all to analyse me and let me know what you think about whether I am a backyard breeder or a good breeder or a professional breeder...

I have 12 dogs, 9 American Bulldogs and 3 Oldes, some of them have had their hips x-rayed and some haven't, some of them have been showed, some haven't, last year we had 2 litters, 9 pups all together, sold 6 kept 3, this year we've had one pup, we still have her, she is for sale, she has a red nose, I'd keep her but I have 2 other females with red noses and I actually prefer black noses, I have trained some of them to do basic obedience and I have done a bit of bitework with some of them, I don't have any serious health issues, I've replaced a couple of puppies for leg problems but the pups problems weren't really diagnosed 100% and they haven't re-occured in subsequent litters. I sell alot of my dogs because I am not completely happy with the way they turn out and I decide that I don't want to reproduce pups that have those characteristics, I have given puppies away to pet homes because I don't think that they are saleable, I haven't been able to kill them. I have become a conformation judge since I started in the AB's, I bought a registry and I have built the largest most popular AB website in the world (I, means me and my hubby really) I host shows, I judge and I spend hours and hours everyday immersed in the bulldog world. My food bill is about $400 month. The money I spend going to shows is lots. I would like to make more money selling puppies so that I can afford more things for the dogs, like I want to build a building and fence in a huge area, actually I'd like to build each pair of dogs a cool little house with their own porch and a nice big fenced area with water lines so that they have fresh cold water all day, I'd also like to be able to afford to go to an expensive trainer and maybe even pay someone to handle my dogs and show them so that I can get more titles, I'd like to buy a camper to go to more shows and I'd like to have more money to fly all over and visit other kennels and chat with other cool breeders, I'd like to hire a kennel hand to help scoop poop and excericise and train dogs and keep me company while I do everything... if I had more money I'd put it all back into the dogs, my kids, house, yard, etc. the dogs, kids, husband, family and friends are my greatest source of enjoyment.

Here is my idea about what a good breeder is, someone that is involved in the breed, takes time to learn, takes good care of their animals, helps to welcome newcomers and give them some education, is always available to their puppy buyers when they have questions down the road, tries to find good homes for their pups, gives the potential owners a good idea about the breed and what kind of care they need, helps out with rescue, goes to shows to find out who the other people involved in the breed are and compare their dogs with what else is out there, reads up on new tests that are available, knows what genetic conditions exist in the breed, I guess I have answered my own question based on my own ideas, thanks for reading.

You guys are so hard on others, sit back, relax and enjoy life, try to see the good in people not just the bad. Nobody's perfect, no dog is perfect... just try your best

It's nice that you are so involved, and are doing so much, but really I would have to agree with the majority, and say that health testing is a MUST. You admitted that not all your dogs are tested. But why not? Why do some, and not others? Why get titles for some, and not others? How do you choose who gets what testing? I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound logical to me. I know it costs a lot of time and money to breed, but if you can't do all the testing, then maybe cut back on what you are breeding? I have never bred a litter and never plan to, i'm just wondering how you can justify certain things for certain dogs, but have no problems breeding them.

rebelroseabs

· #32 · Apr 11, 2006

I think it is because I'm not sure that I believe all of the hype, I did believe it when I started because it was drilled into my head but now that I have some experience under my belt I am beginning to think for myself and I am starting to think that some of these tests are just not necessary, like maybe it is just more of the political bs of dog breeding, I have a handle on my dogs now, I know who's healthy, I know who can work, I know who has good conformation, I know who has a good temperment, I don't need to be rubber stamped by someone else that may or may not know my dogs as well as I do.

For example, it is so silly for me to take a puppy to the vet for a health certificate before I put it on an airplane, I know much more about the health condidtion of that pup than the vet does, he asks me if the pup is eating, drinking, what the stools are like etc. if the puppy was sick I would know it.

But as you can see, you take alot of heat if you don't take the steps that someone/group has decided is the politically correct way to go about these things so maybe I will cave again and just go right ahead and keep on testing and getting my hip scores and titles, who knows, I'm changing but maybe not enough, time will tell and at the end of the day it will be my puppies that speak for themselves.

One other change is that I have gone from competitor at dog shows to judge and owner of a registry, I don't have nearly as many opportunities to be in the ring but I am going to make a bigger effort this year.

Also, I had a really great trainer for obedience and bite work and I don't have him anymore so until I find another one I have to be more independent with my training which for me is a huge problem, I really enjoy training with a group of people, I get bored doing it by myself and I am not as motivated, another reason for trying to get the club going!

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attitude

· #33 · Apr 11, 2006

exellent post lesli. thank you for your honesty, it is what we need in this breed. as for the ncl issue, yes i do think that as time goes by it will become more and more necessary to test all ab's. as for those new breeders that "are in and out in 5 years" ya that would be ok except for all the dogs they leave behind them. i am sick to death of telling shelters to just put dogs down because there are so many byb temperamentaly unsound dogs being dropped off. if it was a "victimless crime" i wouldn't care , but it isn't

rebelroseabs

· #34 · Apr 11, 2006

Cathy, temperment is a big problem but I think it has so much to do with the average joe just not knowing how to handle a dog, and it isn't just with our breed, maybe we can focus more on owning a ]dog and basic ob, you know showing the dog what behaviour is appropriate and what behaviour isn't, there is a lot of spoiling going on, kinda like treating the dogs too much like kids and not enough like pack animals that need to know their place. Dogs think that someone has got to be the boss and if the human doesn't take on that responsibility the dog figures he has too and that is when the problems start.

It can be so simple, make your dog do things all the time, before it eats it has to do something for you, even as simle as a sit, wait a few seconds and then give the food bowl to the dog. Never walk around your dog, make your dog move out of your way, make him wait to go through a door, you always go first etc...

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attitude

· #35 · Apr 11, 2006

preachin to the choir there lesli :lol: you know my dogs, how i raise em and what i expect. dogs are not people and to many dog owners treat them as such. learning under mr. freeman was one of the best educations i could have asked for, as time goes by i expect more/better from my dogs

rebelroseabs

· #36 · Apr 11, 2006

How is Rick?

attitude

· #37 · Apr 11, 2006

he is pretty much done active training, heart problems ect. but he is still cranky n' kickin

bigut64

· #38 · Apr 19, 2006

whats the deal

Is the common belief on here that if you do not show your dog, or compete it, then you shouldnt breed it?

If so i am backing out of saying that is wrong or right for the bully breeds, however in others i know that is not always the best idea. The big kennels do not give the puppies enough human effection for me. I can not stand to see a bunch of dogs locked up in kennels only used to breed other dogs. So if i get stoned or not i support the breeders who only breed one dog at a time that may be considered byb's.

Bremner53

· #39 · Apr 19, 2006

Re: whats the deal

bigut64 said:
Is the common belief on here that if you do not show your dog, or compete it, then you shouldnt breed it?
.

I think a dog has to prove its self to be worthy of breeding. Why breed a pet? There are so many pets out there already why make more? An American Bulldog is a working breed, and should be left that way. The only way to keep it a working breed is to WORK them and breed the proven ones.

Lisa

· #40 · Apr 19, 2006

bigut64:

Would you mind sharing with us what your criteria is for a breed worthy American bulldog and how exactly would you go about ensuring that criteria is met? Thanks in advance.

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