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Agent Squint
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know a lot of you are against breeding unless you have tested, titled dogs. But, I'm testing the waters anyway.
I'm tying Mosley and Montana to try to produce a litter, would be on the ground in early July. I sold my last litter without any problems. And, I've kept in touch with all of them. They're all healthy and their temperaments are good, but I was expecting them to go to working homes. Well, they're not being worked/tested like I expected them to be. So, this time I'm considering practically giving part of the litter to people I know will test and work them, so I can get a better idea of what these dogs are capable of, whether it be pulling, protection, agility, OB, etc. So, aside from you who I already know are against my breeding program, what do those of you who are either neutral or for quality breeding think of this idea. And, since I've gotten to know a lot of you through here, would any of you be interested in being a part of this? If so, either post here, email, or pm me about it. If I'm violating any rules by posting this, I'll gladly delete it. But, I'm not advertising a site or selling puppies, so I hope it's ok. TO BE CLEAR, IF YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY AGAINST THIS, I DON'T CARE TO HEAR YOUR OPINIONS. I KNOW HOW YOU FEEL. I JUST WANT TO GET SOME POSITIVE FEEDBACK FROM THOSE WHO WORK THEIR DOGS.

Thanks,

~Shawn
 

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Well you won't hear anything from me because what you do is your business. As for the pups, have you considered part ownership so that you have a say so in their up bring ie: working, OB agility or what? I'm sure you were/are disappointed in the first litter not working like you thought so maybe this time it will go your way. Good luck. Can't wait for July.
 

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Agent Squint
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
debs said:
Well you won't hear anything from me because what you do is your business. As for the pups, have you considered part ownership so that you have a say so in their up bring ie: working, OB agility or what? I'm sure you were/are disappointed in the first litter not working like you thought so maybe this time it will go your way. Good luck. Can't wait for July.
Thanks for your input, that's a good idea. I hadn't considered that.
 

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I think that is a good idea. First off you need to place them in homes where the owners don't have to drive hours just to practice. I don't even know of anywhere around here that I could take Jaz to for weight pulling or protection work. And I have been trying to find something. So yes, placing them in homes where people already work their dogs is a great idea.

I'm not sure if part owner would work. They might tell you to travel the distance to take them to training or shows. I'm not sure how it would work.
 

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GOOD FOR YOU BROTHER if breeding is what you want to get into then you have to start somwhere ALL THE POWER TO YA ! GOOD LUCK IM SURE YOU WILL DO FINE ! :wink: all ill ask is you at least xrayed the parents right "?
 

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Agent Squint
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
ALPHAMALE said:
GOOD FOR YOU BROTHER if breeding is what you want to get into then you have to start somwhere ALL THE POWER TO YA ! GOOD LUCK IM SURE YOU WILL DO FINE ! :wink: all ill ask is you at least xrayed the parents right "?
Thanks. I wish I could say I DID have Mosley and Montana x-rayed. But, I haven't YET. I'm going to though. I know that doesn't do much good for the litter I had a year and a half ago. But, the dogs we've used as foundation shouldn't have much of a chance of having problems. So, I don't see it as an issue. Mosley is 5 and has had no problems.

~S
 

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So Ammo, do you feel that if you research a pedigree. Contact owners, know the dogs personally, etc, that it may not be all THAT necessary to be worried about hip problems??

Reason I am asking is because Dixie was not tested/x rayed. And we have contacted owners of several siblings, and other dogs through out her pedigree. There has not been one incidence of hip problems. We have also done this w/ sires pedigree.

In your opinion, does that help ease the mind, and likelyhood??

I know hip problems can show up anytime and random, but news like that about no problems w/ family members, isnt it uplifting??Or false hope??

Just wanting to know your opinion.
 

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Agent Squint
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
sajoseph said:
So Ammo, do you feel that if you research a pedigree. Contact owners, know the dogs personally, etc, that it may not be all THAT necessary to be worried about hip problems??

Reason I am asking is because Dixie was not tested/x rayed. And we have contacted owners of several siblings, and other dogs through out her pedigree. There has not been one incidence of hip problems. We have also done this w/ sires pedigree.

In your opinion, does that help ease the mind, and likelyhood??

I know hip problems can show up anytime and random, but news like that about no problems w/ family members, isnt it uplifting??Or false hope??

Just wanting to know your opinion.
I already posted this quote on another thread. But, I think it's even more appropriate here. It's directly from the OFFA website:

There is no rhyme or reason to the severity of radiographic changes correlated with the clinical findings. There are a number of dysplastic dogs with severe arthritis that run, jump, and play as if nothing is wrong and some dogs with barely any arthritic radiographic changes that are severely lame.
And, here is my honest answer to your question:

THere is not ONE case of hip dysplasia in any of the dogs I have used in my breeding stock. There is only ONE AB line(Mosley's dam) associated with my breeding stock. To the best of my knowledge, APBT's, AST's and Boxers are not known for having hip problems. So, in my opinion, honestly, testing these dogs for hip problems is overkill. It's spending on money looking for something that has never been found in the past. Why? Because the "experts" claim if I don't I'm a BYB? That's the only reason I am even considering testing them in the future, I feel guilty due to all the "experts" on here claiming it should be done. I've done my research on my dogs and the dogs in their pedigrees and have found no problems in that area. There was one case of cancer in Mosley's sire and one in another male from his litter. But, I've asked my vet about that, and he told me it's a random thing and there's not really a way to look for it in Mosley unless it's already there. One of the main reasons we've taken on this challenge (breed redevelopment) is to get a healthier dog (ONE of the reasons).

So, in conclusion, I think it is encouraging to see the pedigrees and the other pups from my litter and see minimal health problems. There's ALWAYS going to be that possibility. But, ALL my pups have been healthy so far, and that's exactly what I'm looking for. I hope that answers your questions.

~S

PS
The same goes for petellar luxation, elbow dysplasia, cardiac, thyroid, etc...
Until I have/see a problem, I don't see a real necessity to look for that problem.
 

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Amocat00 said:
To the best of my knowledge, APBT's, AST's and Boxers are not known for having hip problems.
According to offa.org, 25.1 percent of ASTs tested have been dysplastic. 22.2 percent of APBTs tested have been dysplastic. 10.6 percent of boxers tested have been dysplastic. 25 percent is an alarmingly high number. I'd say that falls under the category of "known for having hip problems."
 

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Agent Squint
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
bella_blue said:
Amocat00 said:
To the best of my knowledge, APBT's, AST's and Boxers are not known for having hip problems.
According to offa.org, 25.1 percent of ASTs tested have been dysplastic. 22.2 percent of APBTs tested have been dysplastic. 10.6 percent of boxers tested have been dysplastic. 25 percent is an alarmingly high number. I'd say that falls under the category of "known for having hip problems."
Thanks for the stats. I've already looked at all those stats. By the way, did you consider how much money the OFFA makes off this testing and certification? That along with my previous quote make me question. Also, my dogs aren't any of those breeds individually. But, yes, I am still considering the testing, like I said before. But, since there have been zero occurances of any of those health problems, I'm JUST considering for now. If I had a history in my pedigree, I'd definitely look more seriously in to it. It's like me getting tested for cancer even before there's a history of it in my family. Who does that?

~S
 

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Genetic screening a breeding pair.....why not?

Amocat.

OFA, Penn hip, and OVC says that THERE IS A PROBLEM. For a family, it is heart breaking.

x raying dogs is cheap. Why not do it? Somthing so simple that can screen the health of your dogs and put your mind at rest.

I cannot believe some people are congratulating you for breeding dogs that have not been hip screened (at least).

Good luck to you, sir. I am out of here. I am going back to the dog training boards.
 

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This is an inherited condition, but not all dogs with the genetic tendency will develop clinical signs and the degree of hip dysplasia which develops does not always seem to correlate well with expectations based on the parent's condition. Multiple genetic factors are involved and environmental factors also play a role in determining the degree of hip dysplasia. Dogs with no genetic predisposition do not develop hip dysplasia.

At present, the strongest link to contributing factors other than genetic predisposition appears to be to rapid growth and weight gain. In a recent study done in Labrador retrievers a significant reduction in the development of clinical hip dysplasia occurred in a group of puppies fed 25% less than a control group which was allowed to eat free choice. It is likely that the laxity in the hip joints is aggravated by the rapid weight gain.

Just cool info I found to share.Guess if it is not present, not been noticed along the ped, then shouldnt be a problem. Good luck to you, keep us up!
 

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Re: Genetic screening a breeding pair.....why not?

PeterC said:
Amocat.

OFA, Penn hip, and OVC says that THERE IS A PROBLEM. For a family, it is heart breaking.

x raying dogs is cheap. Why not do it? Somthing so simple that can screen the health of your dogs and put your mind at rest.

I cannot believe some people are congratulating you for breeding dogs that have not been hip screened (at least).

Good luck to you, sir. I am out of here. I am going back to the dog training boards.
I agree with Peter, It is cheap to X ray!! I think Its the Least you could do. For the price it is totally worth it.!!!
 

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Agent Squint
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Re: Genetic screening a breeding pair.....why not?

Bremner53 said:
PeterC said:
Amocat.

OFA, Penn hip, and OVC says that THERE IS A PROBLEM. For a family, it is heart breaking.

x raying dogs is cheap. Why not do it? Somthing so simple that can screen the health of your dogs and put your mind at rest.

I cannot believe some people are congratulating you for breeding dogs that have not been hip screened (at least).

Good luck to you, sir. I am out of here. I am going back to the dog training boards.
I agree with Peter, It is cheap to X ray!! I think Its the Least you could do. For the price it is totally worth it.!!!
He's right and I will do it ASAP.

~S
 

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I am not so sure I agree that OFA is making money of this program. Most of the cost involved in xraying a dog comes from the actual Xraying process done at the vet. To actually certify it only costs $30 and OFA has to pay 3 different radiologists to rate each xray. Don't think there is much left after that for profit. OFA, OVC, and PenHip are all awesome tools. I don't understand why anyone would chose NOT to use them to better their breeding program. After all, you often can not tell if a dog is dysplastic by looking at it. Especially with bullies who have a high pain tolerance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Lisa said:
I am not so sure I agree that OFA is making money of this program. Most of the cost involved in xraying a dog comes from the actual Xraying process done at the vet. To actually certify it only costs $30 and OFA has to pay 3 different radiologists to rate each xray. Don't think there is much left after that for profit. OFA, OVC, and PenHip are all awesome tools. I don't understand why anyone would chose NOT to use them to better their breeding program. After all, you often can not tell if a dog is dysplastic by looking at it. Especially with bullies who have a high pain tolerance.
You're right, please refer to my previous post. Sincerely, thanks for your opinion though.

~S
 

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Amocat, let me know the results. I think all would be interestedm, especially with AB blood in your bandogs. It is great you decided to hip check.

sajoseph, I have had two dogs with hip issues. One showed no signs, as you pointed out. He was perhaps one of the best dogs I have ever had and I worked him until his hips popped out. Now, here is a dog that could bend the freaking o ring from my agitation harness. He was, to say the least, extremely strong. Then one day......bamm. The time I spent on this dog, it was all gone. It was a heartache! Now, his bloodlines have very little hip issues. He was in everyway, by anyone's standards, an amazing dog. I put him down.

If we don't continually cull for bad genes, then they are byb. That is how you improve the breed. There is no other way.

Now "improve" is a subjective opinion. However, general health screening is not. It is a an absolute responsibility and hip testing, for a working dog, is a must!

Hell, you cannot even get a scorbook from most working organizations if you don't submit an OFA, OVC or penn hip.
 

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Agent Squint
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
PeterC said:
Amocat, let me know the results. I think all would be interestedm, especially with AB blood in your bandogs. It is great you decided to hip check.

sajoseph, I have had two dogs with hip issues. One showed no signs, as you pointed out. He was perhaps one of the best dogs I have ever had and I worked him until his hips popped out. Now, here is a dog that could bend the freaking o ring from my agitation harness. He was, to say the least, extremely strong. Then one day......bamm. The time I spent on this dog, it was all gone. It was a heartache! Now, his bloodlines have very little hip issues. He was in everyway, by anyone's standards, an amazing dog. I put him down.

If we don't continually cull for bad genes, then they are byb. That is how you improve the breed. There is no other way.

Now "improve" is a subjective opinion. However, general health screening is not. It is a an absolute responsibility and hip testing, for a working dog, is a must!

Hell, you cannot even get a scorbook from most working organizations if you don't submit an OFA, OVC or penn hip.
I'll post the results when they're in.

I have a question: Why is culling necessary? Why can't you just have them spayed/neutered and go as family pets? I disagree, but only b/c I'm not well educated on it yet....although I'd probably still disagree...it's just not in me.

~S
 

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amocat

culling for me is one thing. Taking it out of the genetic pool. In most cases, it means a trip to the vet.

So, you either put the pup or dog down or or you spay it (neuter).

However, for me, temperment has no forgiveness.

It the dog has obvious genetic faults but is a great pet (great temperment), then it deserves to live and will make a family happy. Like blue eyes or roach back or cleft pallet.

However, if it is shy, nervy, does not absolutley adore kids, reclusive, then it has to be put down. IMO. I have no tolerance because I KNOW HOW CHILD BITES HAPPEN.

I have this test at 6 months of age. I let a small child grab my dog's tail HARD and swing it. I also let the child grab my dog's feet and squeeze HARD!!!! Of course, I have total control over the dog's head. If the dog does not think this is NOT the most wonderful thing that ever happened to him, he is gone. If the dog does not like this brutal treatment from a child, it should be dead. Bulldogs should have pure love of kids, no matter what. Kids possess no threat.

I also shoot .22 gun in my house at 8 weeks to see which ones are noise sensitive. Let's just say there is a HUGE difference between dogs bred for nerves and dogs bred for looks. :lol: Yes, this is a test of nerves.

Now, some of you may think this is harsh. hmmmmmmmm what do you suppose would happen to a nervy dog when he is eating his bone and a kid comes from behind and grabs his swinging tail? Do you think this is an unlikely scenario? NO. This is reality.
Nervy dogs bite kids. Not monster pit bulls. And to me, I would kill 1000 nervy dogs before I would let 1 child be nipped. That is why culling is necessary.

I would have NO hesitation if my dogs EVER EVER growled at a kid (for any any any reason), to put the dog down. Growling shows me bad nerves and to a kid????????????? That is a one way ticket to a vet.

Breeding is hard Amocat. That is why most people should not do it. I am not a breeder. I don't have the time or the heart. It is cruel, especially if you are breeding working dogs.

I have seen people shoot their 1 year old dog because it came off the sleeve. That is breeding working dogs not pets. Zero tolerance. The end product is obvious. Mentally smart, nerves of steel, loves (not like....love) kids, and very high balanced drives.

Culling is necessary if you want to breed well. What is the difference between a BYB and a good responsible breeder of working dogs? Culling, screening ownerns, genetic testing, temperment testing (if it is a protection breed.......then prove your breeding).

I believe at the true grit boad (AB board), how many breeders believed in culling. It was 99% and the 1% was brutalized.
 

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Amocat00's reply

Sorry Shawn, I split the topics and goofed:

Good explanation, Peter. That does make sense. And, you're right about nerves and temperament. I wouldn't tolerate a dog that I saw as a problem around children either. I hadn't thought of it in that way before now, but only because I haven't seen it with my ONE litter. All of them went to families with children and are all doing great with the whole families.
Thanks for the explanation.

~S
 
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