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Jemhidiahssj4 said:
do the dew said:
I'm watching the dog show on Animal Planet at the moment, and the AmStaff had his tail was between his legs during the judging. I instantly thought of this thread. He's a champion.
Just because a dog is a show champion does not make him breed worthy. They are judging just one aspect of a dog, Conformation and not everything that should be considered when choosing breeding stock. This is why alot of people think that some of the breeders are just breeding for looks and not the total dog.


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Very true Jemhidiahssj4 good statement a good show dog doesn't make a good breeding dog all the time. Good conformation should be looked at for a breeding dog, but not nessactity (spp?) i think a dog tail tucking isn't good and doesn't look good by all means, i showed my bitch fro the first time ever at 2 in a show 12 hours away on a day +30 and she didn't tuck her tail! Its not the environment theres no excuss, but hey they can still be great pets, just not breeding quality i have a few of those here! :wink: and i love them the same
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Miakoda said:
True, did you get the pup from Tanya & off her yard? Or is it one someone else had & you got it second hand?
Directly. In the pics is when we just got him at the show. Didn't you say you had something from their yard at one time? I think it was you?
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Yeah you are pretty much RUDE. Its one thing to question or have your opinion but basically your not like that. I never said you have never seen a working dog with bad nerves. Your the one that implied you don't take much stock in show dogs (or however you put it) because of temperament. I have seen crappy dogs on either side of the fence. So its like that comment doesn't make sense. I also never said dogs with poor nerves should be bred.

I never made excuses for them, I don't need to. Explanation is different then excuses, one thing I love about this breed is their loyalty to people. I believe they do get sad and heartbroken if you don't thats fine. I also had read someone that I believe the Dogo Argentino is a one owner type of dog and they don't re-adjust to being given away this is one reason the military didn't want to use them. Sometimes its needed to switch owners and they couldn't. I guess we should cull that whole bred huh?

Of course I'm pissed someone who has never met my dogs is making false statements and comments about them. That is just ridiculous.

I guess I just find it odd how there is always a long list of excuses when someone gets questioned regarding their dogs temperament. No wonder there are so many skittish fear biters out there...the apples never fall far from the tree.
Whats the deal with these two dogs? How many times have these dogs been bred, if ever? Are any of these dogs related?

Tail tucking seems to be a common trait in your yard Is this what we should really be striving for with this breed? Fearful dogs? Doesn't the APBT community have enough on its plate now? Breeding dogs like this is unacceptable, especially bull breeds!
I guess it just stupid statements like these, sure its true and I have seen a few fear biters one was a neighbors Pit and yup you guessed it her dam was like that (I found out myself after talking to her breeder) and then she got pg by a GSD and the pups came out like this even when they were small and I saw them they would run and hide and scream if you went close to them. She was fearful/shy as a pup and then had fear aggression as an adult and then advanced to biting 2 people.

But since what you are saying doesn't apply to my dogs, its kind of annoying and irrelavent. My dogs are the total opposite, they are extremely happy to meet people, wag their tail, the one in the 1st pic you posted wiggles entire body and can't hold still, acts like a goofy nut and gives loves stranger or not, the female is less goofy but still wags her whole back end. Sorry but your full of crap on this one, I have freaking VIDEO of this dog at shows wagging his tail and even wiggly when the judge comes up, I have him acting silly and goofy meeting people not scared or tucking his tail. Its hard to keep him from being so happy and to stay stacked. I even have him in the hands of a couple different handlers just being his silly self. So if these situations are not stressful (w/ people other then myself, away from his house, in a new place, ect) then standing on my porch isn't stressful at all. It seems like you are just hunting illusions that are not there because of one dog. The same for the dog in the 2nd pic, one time I couldn't make a show so I sent her with someone else, was she fearful, aggressive a biter? No she just went off with her and I have pics from at that show with the lady handling her and she isn't at all tucking her tail or scared/fearful. The 2 pics you posted the dogs do not look scared or fearful and don't even have their tails up their butts like the pup pics I posted.

It's so much easier to make an excuse for a temperament problem, than actually acknowledge it and eliminate a dog from a breeding program. Making excuses for fearful dogs will never benefit a breed.
I agree that can be true in some cases, some people will breed a dog irregardless of temperament and that is why we have dogs with temperament problems mainly. Some say its all how they are raised but I believe a lot more comes from breeding and some people are niave.

However again irrelavent, don't try to pretend to know what I cull and don't cull or how I manage my breeding program. I have culled a handful of dogs for various reasons. Culling I believe is very important to any breeding program. I have only culled 1 fear aggressive dog, got her when I bought a pup (I was more into rescue then that breeder) and would have taken my time to rehome her but she would bark at people (you can tell a fearful bark) and might have lead to actual bite if pushed too far. Can't say if she was poorly bred or just not socialized properly or both she had been through a lot of owners so I don't really know about her breeding/raising, she would jump at sounds and although she was always planned to be rehomed as a pet that to me seemed to much of a risk and burdon and there are plenty other deserving APBTs who need homes. As far as within my own program I've only had to cull 1 dog with temperament issues, he had dominance not fear aggression. He came here when he was about 2yrs, looked awesome, had great muscle, structure and almost flawless conformation probably would have made Champ quickly but his temperament got him buried. Not only would he not be bred on the merit of his great looks but I wasn't going to allow a dog like that to be a possible danger/man biter.

Honestly, dogs change hands every day due to various reason, explain how some adjust fine and others can't?? I can explain it..... genetics. A dog with good , strong nerve (worthy of being bred) is not going to tuck its tail and act terrified because it got out of its comfort zone! Behaviour like that should be a red flag for breeders, not a reason to hunt for excuses to justify it.
This is your opinion, maybe mine is different but I'm not slamming yours either. I think if you take a close bonded puppy from his family it has every reason to be uncertain and alarmed. I'm not trying to make excuses or justify. Actually I think this is very normal for most herd/pack animals, if you take them from their family it causes some stress. Why would it not, we expect so much from them that it seems unrealistic. I do expect a solid, trustworthy temperament but I don't expect a puppy always be cool about leaving its family. If it doesn't adjust then I agree there is a problem, once being introduced into a new "pack" it should bond quickly and realize its in a safe situation. To me however it seems more normal for a pup to be uncertain then not. It sounds odd and unfair to think otherwise. Its natural IMO for pack animals to want to stay with their pack, most animals young doesn't want to be seperated from them. These are domesticated dogs I understand selectivly bred by us to have certain traits and temperament, but they still do carry some of their instincts and some of what makes them canines in general, you can't breed everything out. And since this dog has adjusted fine, I'm really not worried. Some dogs just can't and never will and perhaps that is poor breeding like severe seperation anxiety I believe is from poor breeding. I'm pretty much happy with him thus far but he is young and only time will tell, but he is very sociable now, never potties in my home or crate, loves to play, seems highly intellagent and listens and learns easy. If I find that I don't like how he turns out I'll have no problem culling him just like any other dog.

If TruePits were just a pet owner and not a breeder chances are I may have let it go but it appears they are not. Is it just a coincidence that 3 of TP's dogs just happened to tuck their tails when getting their picture taken? Just a coincidence that all 3 dogs were in such stressful situations that they felt like they had to put their tails up their butts? This to me seems unacceptable.
Sorry but you are assuming that this dog is to be bred for whatever reason? I never came on here and said check out my new stud. To answer your previous question no they are not related. Secondly he is the only tail tucker. And you say from "my yard" like again trying to imply I have fearful dogs. When the dog with his tail tuck was the first time I had ever held him. Your so funny, I'm sure he was stressed however being at my homes isn't at all stressful to my dogs, you're really fishing now.

In fact I know breeders of APBT who would not even own dogs who were that skittish in the first place, let alone breed them and post their pictures on the world wide web....
Again Miss Know It All, none of my dogs are skittish. I take them in town, to parks, on walks, to groomers, to petsmart, ect and they never react in a scared or skittish manner. They meet a person they wag their tail not tuck it, they here or see new things they don't react scared. They can be described as happy go lucky. I have seen fearful or skittish dogs, dogs that jump or cower to sounds or sights, they have a negative reaction while these things don't bother my dogs. KS show I went to there were a bunch of big staff/gotti/RE dogs these dogs were the biggest there but were the most scared souls I've ever seen. They tucked their tails the whole time, the owners kept taking them out to walk them probably trying to impress everyone with their big bad dogs yet they tail tucked, cowered, walked low and jumped when people moved, at sounds or if other dogs barked. One slipped its german pinch color I and other went to catch him and he cowered back and acted like he nearly pissed on himself. Thats poor nerves to me. If my dogs got loose they would run and jump into someone else's arms, even though they are strangers. They are not scared when people walk by, they try to get loves, wag their back ends and tails, they think everyone wants to pet them for whatever reason its one of the positive traits of the breed. I have people coming to my yard quite often, strangers whom my dogs have never met and they get just as excited as when they go out and meet people. So I know the truth about my dogs and its good enough for me and the facts is all that matter, no matter what one who doesn't know at all says can't change the facts.
 

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True_Pits said:
Miakoda said:
True, did you get the pup from Tanya & off her yard? Or is it one someone else had & you got it second hand?
Directly. In the pics is when we just got him at the show. Didn't you say you had something from their yard at one time? I think it was you?
Yep. I had a male off of Boogie & Hogtown Light. He's passed now (a tree fell on my house during Hurricane Katrina & killed 5 of my dogs), but we have plenty of pups off of him. He was an AMAZING dog. & I am just waiting for the right breeding to get my hands on another.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Miakoda said:
True_Pits said:
Miakoda said:
True, did you get the pup from Tanya & off her yard? Or is it one someone else had & you got it second hand?
Directly. In the pics is when we just got him at the show. Didn't you say you had something from their yard at one time? I think it was you?
Yep. I had a male off of Boogie & Hogtown Light. He's passed now (a tree fell on my house during Hurricane Katrina & killed 5 of my dogs), but we have plenty of pups off of him. He was an AMAZING dog. & I am just waiting for the right breeding to get my hands on another.
Oh so littermate to Axel, that is cool. I really like him. I'm so sorry about the trees/dogs! That must have been so harsh to loose them like that. :cry: Katrina really caused a lot of damage.
 

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TruePits,

All 3 of those dogs pictrued in this thread are tucking their tails, not just the first one. Take another look, the tails of the second and third dog pictured are more forward than their thighs and almost pointing straight ahead. If thats not what you consider tucked then don't know what is. Or, maybe I a misunderstanding your post? There was alot to go through there...lol.

I look at it this way. Any breeder who truly cared about temperament (not just say they do) would NEVER post pictures like that. NEVER. People who truly care about temperament look at a dog and look for things about that dog that would indicate how confident and stable it is. Tail up, ears erect and not back, head up, chest out...etc etc. they would never post pics of dogs with tails up their butts because they would be embarassed.. The simple fact you think nothing of doing this and have a long list of excuses as to why this behaviour is acceptable, shows how much you care about temperament right there. I do not have to meet your dogs to know where you put temperament in terms of priority. Your pictures and long winded excuses ( or explanations as you call it) says it all. A dog that is so weak that it can't even stand for a picture taking or handle changing hands has a problem! A dog like that LACKS CONFIDENCE in itself that is why it feels more comfortable being with its owners because that is their comfort zone. It has nothing to do with "bonding". PLEASE. I have a female AB here who in the last year has lived in 3 different places. she walked in here like she owned the place. When I walked her over to my truck when I picked her up she happily hopped into it....no TAIL TUCKING.

I think the bottom line is that you just have low standards when it comes temperament. Maybe better than some, but defintiely lower than mine and that of my mentors and a couple breeders of APBT that I know.

You say you are not looking for excuses or reasons to justify the behaviour but that is all you have done in this thread...

I think if you take a close bonded puppy from his family it has every reason to be uncertain and alarmed. I'm not trying to make excuses or justify. Actually I think this is very normal for most herd/pack animals, if you take them from their family it causes some stress. Why would it not, we expect so much from them that it seems unrealistic.
Normal? In whose eyes? Yours? Definitely not mine. Again an excuse. The only people who would consider that normal are people who have nver seen a confident animal. Comes down to STANDARDS. I think changing hands is no reason for a dog to tuck its tail. Difference in standards

Once again has Venom and Santana (I think that is their names, my apologies if they aren't) been bred? What is going on in those photos that would in your eyes "justify" the tail tucking?

Why did you put this in the BREEDING SECTION of this forum? Any reason why you just didn't put it in the Photo section? :? :? :?
 

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On another note

What I find even more amazing is the breeders who put so much importance into health testing and conformation. OFA hips and elbows, thyroid tests, ears, eyes, etc etc. Pretty, conformationally correct dogs..EVERYTHING under the sun except for correct temperament?

HMMM I wonder why?
 

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Re: On another note

Lisa said:
What I find even more amazing is the breeders who put so much importance into health testing and conformation. OFA hips and elbows, thyroid tests, ears, eyes, etc etc. Pretty, conformationally correct dogs..EVERYTHING under the sun except for correct temperament?

HMMM I wonder why?

all due respect lisa, you need to chill a bit. Not EVERY dog is going to be 100% confident at all times. This dog is younger, and fine, it was scared. doesn't automatically discount his temperament altogether. I have seen dogs who were scared of their own shadow, go through obedience and socialization and come out a completely different dog. My own dog for example, used to be scared $hitless of the "shake can" at Gemini....we worked through it and now it doesn't matter anymore. whereas before, she would shake anytime she saw it. Does this make her a bad dog? not in my opinion. NO DOG IS PERFECT. I'm sure even Roscoe and Smooch have some traits or qualities you would rather they didn't. There are a he!! of a lot worse owners out there than truepits.
 

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Re: On another note

peeblerelf said:
all due respect lisa, you need to chill a bit. Not EVERY dog is going to be 100% confident at all times. This dog is younger, and fine, it was scared. doesn't automatically discount his temperament altogether. I have seen dogs who were scared of their own shadow, go through obedience and socialization and come out a completely different dog. My own dog for example, used to be scared $hitless of the "shake can" at Gemini....we worked through it and now it doesn't matter anymore. whereas before, she would shake anytime she saw it. Does this make her a bad dog? not in my opinion. NO DOG IS PERFECT. I'm sure even Roscoe and Smooch have some traits or qualities you would rather they didn't. There are a he!! of a lot worse owners out there than truepits.
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Re: On another note

all due respect lisa, you need to chill a bit. Not EVERY dog is going to be 100% confident at all times. This dog is younger, and fine, it was scared. doesn't automatically discount his temperament altogether. I have seen dogs who were scared of their own shadow, go through obedience and socialization and come out a completely different dog. My own dog for example, used to be scared $hitless of the "shake can" at Gemini....we worked through it and now it doesn't matter anymore. whereas before, she would shake anytime she saw it. Does this make her a bad dog? not in my opinion. NO DOG IS PERFECT. I'm sure even Roscoe and Smooch have some traits or qualities you would rather they didn't. There are a he!! of a lot worse owners out there than truepits.[/quote]
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Re: On another note

peeblerelf said:
Lisa said:
What I find even more amazing is the breeders who put so much importance into health testing and conformation. OFA hips and elbows, thyroid tests, ears, eyes, etc etc. Pretty, conformationally correct dogs..EVERYTHING under the sun except for correct temperament?

HMMM I wonder why?

all due respect lisa, you need to chill a bit. Not EVERY dog is going to be 100% confident at all times. This dog is younger, and fine, it was scared. doesn't automatically discount his temperament altogether. I have seen dogs who were scared of their own shadow, go through obedience and socialization and come out a completely different dog. My own dog for example, used to be scared $hitless of the "shake can" at Gemini....we worked through it and now it doesn't matter anymore. whereas before, she would shake anytime she saw it. Does this make her a bad dog? not in my opinion. NO DOG IS PERFECT. I'm sure even Roscoe and Smooch have some traits or qualities you would rather they didn't. There are a he!! of a lot worse owners out there than truepits.
peebles, with all due respect to you, I have a different outlook :)

Sure, through conditioning a dog can learn to better handle things that stress them (i.e shaken can). You take the dog and condition it to not be scared of it. That is fine. However, I am looking at this from a breeding standpoint. What you have essentially done is mask the issue. Nothing wrong with wanting to help out your pet, but the dogs used for breeding shouldn't need that help in the first place and that is the point I am trying to make. By conditioning a dog to a certain stessor all you are doing is masking that problem. Doesn't change the genetics of the dog because all you are doing is covering up the problem through condtioning and socialization. I have no problem with people who want to do this with their pets but I do have a problem with people who do this and then use those dogs for breeding. Its no different than wanting to use healthy dogs with good conformation...we want to use the best. Although you are correct that no dog is perfect (and yes I know both my dogs have faults, I guess you didn't read my "be your own critic thread" a few months back? I think my list of my dogs faults was longer than their postivies) IMO I find that many people think nopthing of sacrficing good temperament.

Like I said, I always thoguht that True Pits seemed to have his/her shit together for the most part. However, its hard not to notice that almost every picture he/she posts has the dogs with their tails tucked, then puts this up in the breeding section and talks about breeding dogs. That is my problem. I know as well as you do that no dog is perfect (believe me I really do) but that is not the point. I guess I do't understand why people are so willing to sacrfice temperament in their breeding programs...especially the people who have such high standards with health and conformation. The bar should be set just as high with temperament as it is with the other aspects but that doesn't seem to be the case with alot of breeders.
 

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Re: On another note

Lisa said:
peeblerelf said:
Lisa said:
What I find even more amazing is the breeders who put so much importance into health testing and conformation. OFA hips and elbows, thyroid tests, ears, eyes, etc etc. Pretty, conformationally correct dogs..EVERYTHING under the sun except for correct temperament?

HMMM I wonder why?

all due respect lisa, you need to chill a bit. Not EVERY dog is going to be 100% confident at all times. This dog is younger, and fine, it was scared. doesn't automatically discount his temperament altogether. I have seen dogs who were scared of their own shadow, go through obedience and socialization and come out a completely different dog. My own dog for example, used to be scared $hitless of the "shake can" at Gemini....we worked through it and now it doesn't matter anymore. whereas before, she would shake anytime she saw it. Does this make her a bad dog? not in my opinion. NO DOG IS PERFECT. I'm sure even Roscoe and Smooch have some traits or qualities you would rather they didn't. There are a he!! of a lot worse owners out there than truepits.
peebles, with all due respect to you, I have a different outlook :)

Sure, through conditioning a dog can learn to better handle things that stress them (i.e shaken can). You take the dog and condition it to not be scared of it. That is fine. However, I am looking at this from a breeding standpoint. What you have essentially done is mask the issue. Nothing wrong with wanting to help out your pet, but the dogs used for breeding shouldn't need that help in the first place and that is the point I am trying to make. By conditioning a dog to a certain stessor all you are doing is masking that problem. Doesn't change the genetics of the dog because all you are doing is covering up the problem through condtioning and socialization. I have no problem with people who want to do this with their pets but I do have a problem with people who do this and then use those dogs for breeding. Its no different than wanting to use healthy dogs with good conformation...we want to use the best. Although you are correct that no dog is perfect (and yes I know both my dogs have faults, I guess you didn't read my "be your own critic thread" a few months back? I think my list of my dogs faults was longer than their postivies) IMO I find that many people think nopthing of sacrficing good temperament.

Like I said, I always thoguht that True Pits seemed to have his/her ** I almost cursed ** together for the most part. However, its hard not to notice that almost every picture he/she posts has the dogs with their tails tucked, then puts this up in the breeding section and talks about breeding dogs. That is my problem. I know as well as you do that no dog is perfect (believe me I really do) but that is not the point. I guess I do't understand why people are so willing to sacrfice temperament in their breeding programs...especially the people who have such high standards with health and conformation. The bar should be set just as high with temperament as it is with the other aspects but that doesn't seem to be the case with alot of breeders.

My mistake...didn't realize they were breeding the dog. That being said, if you are BREEDING I do believe that temperament is the most important priority, before working ability and all that. But as you have said before and many have said before it's about the "total package". If they are planning on breeding I understand what you are getting at. I thought it was just a pet. Didn't realize it was in the breeding section until you pointed it out.
 

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This IS the breeding QUESTIONS forum is it not? So why hasnt this thread been locked or moved to a section more suited to its purpose? There has been no breeding questions asked, accept for other people on the thread asking if these dogs were to be bred. So I propose a vote to lock or move!!!! How about it guys and girls?
 

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WOW.... that is some long winded posting for sure!

I agree with Lisa's comments 100% and I don't think that her bringing this perspective to the forum is rude at all. I believe that the vast majority of the members and lurkers looking for information are novice at best especially when it comes temperament traits. This unpopular perspective gets peoples feathers all ruffled up, but the fact is.... there is allot to be learned here! Education is the best way to inform those that do not understand (novice) what they may or may not be seeing. I respect Lisa for using her experience in evaluating traits to call a spade a spade!!!!

TP can call it whatever he wants... I find nothing in his statements that support a proper temperament evaluation of the dogs pictured. Any well bred dog needs to handle environmental stresses, the pics indicate a lack of this ability... this should be a fault in the breed! Any breed! Silly and goofy are not recognized temperament traits.

I totally disagree with breeding for anything but the total package… temperament and health go hand in hand followed by conformation.


8)
 

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Jemhidiahssj4 said:
This IS the breeding QUESTIONS forum is it not? So why hasnt this thread been locked or moved to a section more suited to its purpose? There has been no breeding questions asked, accept for other people on the thread asking if these dogs were to be bred. So I propose a vote to lock or move!!!! How about it guys and girls?
This is where people come to find out what should be considered before I breed my dog....

Temperament (which is being discussed) is a trait that should be highly evaluated and considered before breeding, therefore it is properly placed in the breeding section for all to learn!

8)
 

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This is quite an interesting discussion but if I were to voice my opinion...

While people have said that Lisa's comments have been borderline rude (I really just think she's rather passionate about the breed) I tend to agree with her.

So many people are overly concerned with aesthetics often times temperament becomes a secondary concern and with breeds such as these you should never make that mistake.

I personally don't think the ring is a good place for a shy, fearful dog or a dog without a strong temperament but I'm sure most would agree that they shouldn't be considered breeding stock.

I will however say that nothing I read lead me to believe that True Pit planned on breeding that pup (and it is still a pup) so I don't think it cause to ring the alarm just yet.
 
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