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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If you are REALLY interested, come to this seminar by Fred Hassen hosted by the North California K9 academy.

Nor Cal k9 academy is having an ecollar seminar focusing on baiscs and e-collar use in protection work.

Should be an excellent opportunity to learn how to properly use the most abused training tool.

Aug 5 and 6.

I think everyone knows Fred Hassen, so I won't elaborate.

http://www.norcalk9academy.moonfruit.com/

http://www.fredhassen.com/sitmeanssitbroadband.html

One of the BEST e-collar trainers in the world hosted by the one of the very best clubs for training Bulldogs. Can't go wrong.
 

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E-collar? When I hear e-collar, I think elizabethan collar. Heheheh - obviously the wrong context! Enlighten me.
 

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I will be in Chicago that weekend. I wonder if he'll be having any near Ohio anytime in the near future!

Karen -- he means electronic collars, aka shock collars.
 

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I know!

In the vet world, an e collar is an elizabethan collar LOL!

I hate shock collars, ever put one on yourself?

My coworker did at the lowest setting and she said it hurt

I will never use one, there are different ways to train, besides pits have strong pain thresholds.
I couldn't imagine it working very well will them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
pitbullroyalty.....

First, the e-collar is not just a shock collar.

Second, the e collar is NOT for novice trainers. If you try to use it without knowing HOW to use it, as some of you have already found out, it is a disaster. This is why I posted a seminar coming up with Fred Hassen. People are afraid of things they do not understand.

Third, there is a REASON almost EVERY single high level obedience trainer IN THE WORLD uses the e collar. Period. It is a tool and with good timing, it is invaluable, especially training a bulldog breed. How many times have I read that my dogs don't do things or do it very slowly????? Well, here is the solution.

It is like saying a car is dangerous when you don't know how to drive. You don't know how to drive, you will crash! YOu know how to use it and it will take you places you can only DREAM about. Same logic.

At the lowest setting, it hurt?????????? Well, again, buy crappy e collars and you get crappy results. On my tritronic, at level 1 low, I cannot even feel it.

Again, e collars are not for novice trainers. I think it is VERY helpful, especially with bully breeds.

So, this is an opportunity to learn from one of the BEST in the WORLD.
 

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Well, I'm into positive training.

I'd rather praise my dog for doing something right and correct his wrong behavior without hurting him.

That means not using prong or zapper collars, dogs respond better to positive training because they don't
think like us. They don't know what they did wrong, only that they got hurt. Zapping them for not sitting
fast enough will not teach them anything because they don't know what you want them to do.

The greatest relationships between dogs and their owners are based on respect and trust.

A dog will not respect or trust you if you hurt him, she will only fear you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
with all due respect......

I think you are closed minded. I wonder if your dog comes EVERY time he is called. EVERY TIME AND FAST! Mine does. it was achieved through e collar, lots of love and rewards timed correctly.

As for respect, confidence and trust. A dog will not work at a certain level if it is not happy to do the work. It will look listless and unhappy doing OB. Trust me. When the E collar comes out of the bag, my dogs go ape nuts with happiness.

How can you condemn a tool if you have never used it correctly or know nothing about it? This is what I don't understand.

Pure positive training does not work. It works at the elementary level with NO distractions.

I don't think you even went into Fred Hassen's website, did you? I doubt it.

There are certain dogs that require many training techniques. You have to be open to learning new techniques. Otherwise, you will never improve.

Yep, you need respect. Otherwise you get hurt. hahaha.



 

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I think most of the people on this site are open to new ideas. If they weren't they wouldn't take the time to respond to or read these posts. I think you could be more open to people thinking your a but head for using pain as a tool to get what you want. This doesn't mean it does not work, and very well I'm sure. Just not a method some wish to employ. I think I'll go in the kitchen and smack the wife 'cause dinner ain't ready.

Sorry for the BH remark.
 

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Re: pitbullroyalty.....

PeterC said:
.

Third, there is a REASON almost EVERY single high level obedience trainer IN THE WORLD uses the e collar. Period. It is a tool and with good timing, it is invaluable, especially training a bulldog breed. How many times have I read that my dogs don't do things or do it very slowly????? Well, here is the solution.

.
Thats not true.

It is NOT used by British armed forces dog trainers nor is it used by British Police dog trainers because training through PAIN produces unpredicatable dogs.

The UK Armed Forces In answer to a UK House of Commons Written Parliamentary Question, Adam Ingram MP (Minister for the Armed Forces) stated: “Dog training within the Armed Forces is conducted at the Defence Animal Centre. Training is supervised and conducted in progressive stages, and the dogs are trained wearing either a plain leather collar or a high visibility harness with a rope or leather lead. Training is reward-based, including verbal praise, physical play or a combination of the two. No devices (such as electric shock collars) are used in the evaluation, training or retraining of Service dogs
.”

.E collars are BANNED in states/territories of Australia, in Germany, in Switzerland and in Slovenia

So lets not include the WHOLE WORLD in the use of these barberic collars

All of these respected uk dog orginisation are against thier use
British Small Animal Veterinary Association and British Veterinary Association • Scottish SPCA • Scottish Kennel Club • Kennel Club • Dogs Trust • RSPCA • Blue Cross• Association of Pet Dog Trainers • Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors • The Guide Dogs for the Blind Association • Association of Chief Police Officers • Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland • UK Armed Forces 7.
Know whos advise should be trusted ?

I for one trust the people that train their dogs to keep them alive not the people that stand to make financial gain for promoting their use.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
this is the kind of stuff that makes this site weird.

who says e collar produces pain. You assume this. yes, it can USED THE WRONG WAY! You guys don't know HOW to use it so you condem a tool?

Never mind. Do what you always do. LOL. I can imagine how your dogs behave.

PS. yeovil red
trust me. I am not guessing. You go to a proper club in UK, they use the e collar. What is the difference between banning a proper training tool and banning pit bulls. Both come from lack of knowledge.

Schuzhund does not allow e collars I am told, nor do they allow pinch collars here in North American. I guess they don't use it either.

LOL. Don't use it. End of story. LOL.
 

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Hello all!

Let me start by saying that I've only done 2 disciplines competitively. Obedience and French Ring and in both I've won national championships. And although I've never owned and used an ecollar on my personal dog's training, I do see it's place in the dog trainer's "tool bag".

All "tools" (ecollars or others) are neutral. They are neither positive or negative. It all depends in who's hand they fall upon. That being said, we must also realize that some training is more critical than others. By this I mean that if your training is geard to a dog that will just work in it's own backyard, then that training can be purely positive because if there IS a disbedience from that dog ..... no major concequences result from it.

Now, if a dog is trained for competition, then it all changes. Because if the dog sees disobedience as no big deal, then that dog/handler team will be throwing away tons of effort, time, sacrifices and $$$$ with each trial they loose. For competitive trainers it's imperative that they use any and all the necessary tools to achieve dependable results. Hope this helps, happy training.
 

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augrad said:
Ah - okay! Now it makes sense.

(And it's Jennifer. :wink: )
Sorry Jennifer, I wasn't paying attention... for some reason I confuse Buster and Chopper since they're both so big and loveable!!
 

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Peter, I truly wish I could attend this seminar. I have never used an e-collar, and probably won't, only b/c I don't know what the heck I'm doing. Like you said, I'd just screw up my dog. If I had the right help, I would try it. I'm happy with Harley obeying most of the time, but she's so far from 100%....I know it's my own fault she's not there...by the time I finish my schooling & actually make enough money to pay for the kind of training I'd like to do...Harley will be OLD! Makes me feel like a crappy dog owner-even though I know I do better by her than most people I personally know.
Your ideas meet with so much resistance, you must feel like you're talking to a brick wall most of the time. I think you make perfect sense, even if I don't agree 100% with everything you say (can't actually think of something you said I disagree with off the top of my head). Anyway, have a great weekend
 

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Re: this is the kind of stuff that makes this site weird.

PeterC said:
who says e collar produces pain. You assume this. yes, it can USED THE WRONG WAY! You guys don't know HOW to use it so you condem a tool?

Never mind. Do what you always do. LOL. I can imagine how your dogs behave.

PS. yeovil red
trust me. I am not guessing. You go to a proper club in UK, they use the e collar. What is the difference between banning a proper training tool and banning pit bulls. Both come from lack of knowledge.

Schuzhund does not allow e collars I am told, nor do they allow pinch collars here in North American. I guess they don't use it either.

LOL. Don't use it. End of story. LOL.

I wont use and I will also continue to argue against its use on here.
 

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I wonder how the militaries and police departments of the world trained their dogs before they invented e-collars? I'm not a bleeding heart who thinks you should go to prison for using one , but I doubt that it is the most effective tool. My wife's best friend is married to a CIA officer who trains bomb dogs and has been to Afghanistan and Iraq twice each now with his dog(s). I checked with him and the CIA does not use e-collars when training their dogs. God only knows how many zillions of tax dollars were spent to determine what kind of training is best. If an e-collar works for you, use it (in a humane educated manor), but I don't think it is the best option available.
 

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Actually, my dogs do come to me quite fast when I call.
It's because they are happy to see me, not because they are afraid of me zapping them.

My dogs do what I say because they respect my alpha role (which I have earned through leadership).
If a dog fears you, it fears you. There is no relationship there, it is simply just afraid.

I love my dogs too much to hurt them or make them afraid of me, the worst I have done is to
give them a little smack on the butt. It didn't hurt them or make them afraid of me, but it got
the point across at the time. I will probably never do that again.

I don't care if it takes longer to train them without a shock collar, I'd rather train them the correct
way and have them learn right from wrong versus the quick way in which they learn little but fear.

BTW, that one aggressive rottie that I met (the junk yard dog who cut his foot open)..

He was wearing a shock collar.. in fact most of the ill behaved dogs that come in for grooming are wearing them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Nelson, thank you again for LOGIC.

I am going to say this one last time for the autistic people who cannot comprehend. E collars are NOT the best tools, but a good one for people to learn. A trainer's brain and his experience are the best tools. A trainer's ability to LEARN and ADAPT to each new dog. So, why would you limit your tool?

Do you use a chock collar or a pinch? hmmmmmmm You shouldn't. Just use your loving voice. Actually, I consider a chock collar to be the MOST hard on the dogs. Only our HARDEST dogs in our club use the pinch and the chock collar together. Soooo do you use a chock? You will say yes I do because I know how to use it correctly. :lol: Thank you. That is my point.
 

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Im sure you could train a dog to not do something by putting a cigeratte out on its face? Perhaps thats a tool you should consider after all why discount anything that might help you control your dogs.Why your at it get your self a red hot poker or a spear.If you cant train without pain then your not half the 'dog man' that you obviously consider your self to be.

and dontl call people autistic just because they don't agree with you.
 

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I don't care what anyone says, if you use only motivational methods in your training you will not have a realiable dog. Good training consists of a balance of both positive and negative. I use positive to TEACH and negative later on to reinforce that behaviour. Perhaps my idea of a well trained dog and some of you others is different? Even a soft as a marshmallow dog is going to need a correction once in a while. Pitbullroyalty how do you "correct" your dog exactly?

IMO if a dog can't handle a physical correction from me without shutting down, I don't want that dog. A dog who shuts down from a correction (e -collar, prong, choker, whatever) is useless to me. You need to use both positive and negative to have a well trained dog! Only positive will not cut it! Honestly what kind of dog can only work with positive methods? Obviously a pretty weak dog. Any decent dog will learn from those corrections and work thru them, not quit.
 
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