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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Evan,

I saw on the Bullyvard board where you had mentioned that a BST II would be more difficult to attain than a SCH III. I asked there for you to state the reasons why you felt that way. The thread was from last week I believe so you must not have seen my question so I decided to ask you here as well.

I can think of many reasons why a SCH III would be harder to attain. Could you please state why you think otherwise?

Thanks..
 

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Peter told me this. That's all I know hehe. I can't remember his reasons why. I had it in my PM box but it's cleared now.

Peter, what are your opinions on BST vs SchH?

I'd like to know again too, I keep hearing about how hard a BST II is to achieve.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
redbull said:
Peter told me this. That's all I know hehe. I can't remember his reasons why.
OK, so its not actually YOU who feels that way then?

Well, I have to say I disagree with Peter. I went over the requirements for a BST II and for the life of me can not see how it would be more difficult than a SCH III? :?

First of all the obvious...NO TRACKING in BST's. Tracking is 1/3 of a Schutzhund trial and requires a ton of time and proper techniqes. From what I have seen in trials it is the phase that people seem to fail the most.

Secondly, the obedience phase. The obedience in a BST and BST II is the same as a BH routune. Even a SCH I has 3 retrieves (2 over jumps) plus a send out and honour down. The BST's do not have any of this. Generally speaking, the obedience is judged harder in a SCH trial as well, at least with most judges.

Protection phase. A SCH III protection routine requires a dog to search 6 blinds. The BST I and II also does not require a transport back to the judge which is freakin hard especially if you train the transport the right way and have the dog watching the helper intently. The BST II requires the dog to search only 2 blinds. Also, I do not believe a dog is required to do a hold and bark in the BST like it is in a SCH trial, but rather just a gurard -silent if need be, but I could be wrong about that. Peter can clarify. Getting a strong bark out of some dogs can be a challenge. Other than that the protection phase does seem fairly comparable. Maybe it was just the protection phase Peter was referring to and not the whole trial? The BST II requires gunfire during the courage test which the SCH III does not, so I give him that and the BST I and II also have an attack out of the blind which SCH has since removed form their program (big mistake).

I guess I just don't see how it can be so much harder. I have heard from people that the dogs are more pressured by the helpers during BST's. Peter can correct me if I am wrong but my guess is he was referring to the protection phase only when he told you a BST II is harder than a SCH III. Even then I would still say it would be debateable. The pressure may be more (but a good dog should be able to take that) and the 6 blind search and transport back to the judge is no walk in the park to train!!
 

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I think a lot of SchH dogs may get washed out in PSA and PP type trials. A lot of SchH deals with training repetition, so a lot of dogs are able to get titled that may not all 'have it'. I've heard of that happening at some clubs that also hold trials. A lot of titled gsd's out there that aren't really good when it comes to real-life work. I think Marcello has to of been the best SchH trainer that I've met or heard of - he trains like a PP/PSA trainer...puts the dogs through a lot from what I've heard.

But I agree with the OB + tracking portions making it more difficult overall. I still don't know much about the BST II as I should though, but from what I know - it can be a better test of substance?
 

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How can you give a opinion of what is harder then the other if you have never TRIALED in either sport? i know Peter has so he can describe., but others who havent dont know one minute of how much work and time it takes for either sport (BST OR SCH)
First of all OVERALL schutzhund is more time to train then BST so in my opinion that tells you soemthing about the dog being able to take on more at hand and of different criterias each day. Redbull mentions "routines" in schutzhund, EVERY sport has a routine that is how it is judged. Pattern training shouldnt be done and you will never know the true dedication of your dog this way. Also in BST i have heard dogs getting them that shouldnt have same as you hear in schutzhund. I dont think either are "easy" but i am sure to each indivdual dog soem sports are harder then others. OB is general is the hardest thing to achieve it takes lots of work, knowing your dog and what makes it tick, different routines, and schutzhund asks for the best when it comes to ob compared to BSt so there is where i tell which is more demanding
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Evan, you can do repetition training in other sports besides Schutzhund. Those dogs in a PSA trial KNOW they are going to be jumping into that vehicle to do a carjacking scene too because they have probably done it a 100 times.

I think I really need to get out the WEST Coast and see some PSA trials. i saw one in Michigan a couple years back and none of the dogs really impressed me. Chello taped the whole thing and when I asked him for the tape a while back he said he erased it because there was nothing on it worth keeping. :shock: I believe there are good dogs everywhere and a good dog should be able to excell in whatever venue its owners choses. A confident stable animal with good drive and solid nerve shouldn't have to be washed out of one sport and thrown in another in order to be succesful.

BTW I know that you like Chello, but you were at our club ONCE. Please don't make it sound like you actually trained here because you did not. Again, when you say how Chello puts the dogs thru alot you are correct (he has very high standards and demands alot form dogs) but again. you are voicing your opinions based on heasay which you seem to do alot and is what seems to get you into the most trouble here. I think for you to make statements regarding what venue harder is kind of off base because you have never trained a dog in anything and the last time we had talked about this you had never even been to any sort of working trial what so ever. In fact, unless you have been getting out and about in the last couple months, the only working dogs you have ever seen in person were at my club and that was only one time!

Having an opinion is fine, we all have 'em! But an opinion should really be based on real life experiences, not hearsay. I may not have the "Titles" to back up my opinions but I have been busting my ass for the past couple years TRAINING the exercises not only for Schutzhund, but BST's as well. I KNOW what is required and what type of work is involved in each because I have been doing it.
 

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Tia said:
How can you give a opinion of what is harder then the other if you have never TRIALED in either sport? i know Peter has so he can describe.,

There's your answer right there ;)
From talking to Peter and ppl who train or have trained in both. I figure their words are worth something lol.

It's not like I have my own opinion yet. If I say something now, it's based off of other's personal experience.
 

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bst I, bst II , schI thru III, any of the ring sports are pretty much "pattern training".
altho a bst definitely throws more noise/intimidation at a dog in the bitework portion of the test i don't think it can be rated "harder than a schIII". which would i find easier to train for with a sound/stable dog... a bst II. have i seen dogs with unstable temperaments qualify for a sch III AND a bst II ...YES. (also seen alot of good dogs fail both).
 

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ohhhhhhh no......don't get me out of context.

I said the search the blind is MUCH harder in the BST II, since it is a directed send. There can be three blinds on the field and the dog is directed, at the judge's discretion to go for the instructed blind first, never in a clockwise manor. This makes it very hard since it cannot be trained for, per say. YOu cannot pattern train.

If I implied that sch III is easy, I appologize. I could not do it. It is a dedicated sport. That tracking is brutal. HARD.

When I had my BST 2 trial, I had 3 blinds and 2 decoys in the field. It was HARD. We trained like schutzhund in a predetermined way. left or right (i got that right) but the second blind WAS NOT in clockwise direction. So we failed that one. We will be better prepared this summer. You learn and prepare. It is not the BST 2 of old.

Yes, this exercise is much harder.

SchIII, I give props to the trainers, and their ability, like ring. But really, I don't care if my dog retrieves, go for socks, sits on a basket, or go to a blind when the dog knows there is no bad guy there. Much of it does not make sense to me. What does make sense is the EFFORT, INTELLIGENCE, DETERMINATION, AND DEDICATION it takes to TRAIN a dog to do those things.

Tracking is VERY HARD. Again, I don't understand sch tracking since you have to train the dog AGAIN for air scent tracking in real police serivce or search and rescue.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Re: ohhhhhhh no......don't get me out of context.

PeterC said:
I said the search the blind is MUCH harder in the BST II, since it is a directed send. There can be three blinds on the field and the dog is directed, at the judge's discretion to go for the instructed blind first, never in a clockwise manor. This makes it very hard since it cannot be trained for, per say.

Yes, this exercise is much harder.
Thanks for clarifying that Peter. Interesting stuff.

I guess it will help me that I like to teach the blind search as an obedience exercise rahter than teach it during the bitework? I always do blind searches when I am out doing ob with my dogs (reward with a ball) and always mix up what blind I am sending them to. Even during protection, we never always use the same blind as the "hot blind". We do "pattern train" the blinds at the club but usually only when a dog is getting close to trial or with some dogs that are more stubborn and hard to train, they may get a little more pattern because they require it.

One thing I know for sure is I will NEVER go back to teachng the blinds during protection. So much easier to teach during ob when the dog is clamer and able to think a little more clearly. ;)

Attitude, how is the cone method coming along for you?
 

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Re: ohhhhhhh no......don't get me out of context.

Lisa said:
Attitude, how is the cone method coming along for you?
the dog is doing well, sadly i have barely been able to walk this past week so I am sucking. managed a very painful walk around the block yesterday and that is about all i have done since friday :cry:
 

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I use the sleeve method.

an old schutzhund guy told me.

place three blinds. Have one you directed towards baited with a sleeve. Make the dog look at you. e collar is used, in my case for direction, not punishment.

I use hand signals to direct and point the dog towards the blind. If he chooses the wrong blind, beep beep beep. Make the dog come back. No reward. If he chooses the right one, obviously he gets his sleeve. Later, we chain the reward to the decoy.

works like a charm unless the dog sees the decoy in the wrong blind. ugggggggg.

In the end, NOW that I failed the BST 2, I bait ALL the blinds and reward comes ONLY when it chooses the one I allow. Like a freaking border collie. I will be prepared better next time.

YOu know what though, it helps with PSA. There is a ton of directed sends here. For a bulldog, this is VERY hard, I think.

You know, I am batting 50/50. LOL. I pass 50% of the trials and tournaments I go to. Funny thing is, I realize how I, not the dog, make the dog fail. To be sure, I have only trialed 6 times. So, I am a rookie. I am still learning to trial. The good thing is, so far, I have never failed in the second attempt. At least I am learning. :lol: :lol: :lol: And I admit, it is fun. And I get great satisfaction from all our club dogs doing well since they are my dogs.

It is like I tell my nurses. "Failure is the BEST teacher if you RESPOND to it and not REACT to it."
 

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I have always told my guys that your training is your classwork and the trial is your test. Once you're evaluated you can make working plan for any "loopholes" in your training the test brought out. There's no such thing as a loss if you actually learn from it. It's commendable to hear that you put your nose to the ground and grinded it out to get the passing trial, and not give up on your training, and most of all, your dog! My hat's off to you and others who have done likewise.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Re: I use the sleeve method.

PeterC said:
an old schutzhund guy told me.

place three blinds. Have one you directed towards baited with a sleeve. Make the dog look at you. e collar is used, in my case for direction, not punishment.

I use hand signals to direct and point the dog towards the blind. If he chooses the wrong blind, beep beep beep. Make the dog come back. No reward. If he chooses the right one, obviously he gets his sleeve. Later, we chain the reward to the decoy.

works like a charm unless the dog sees the decoy in the wrong blind. ugggggggg.

In the end, NOW that I failed the BST 2, I bait ALL the blinds and reward comes ONLY when it chooses the one I allow. Like a freaking border collie. I will be prepared better next time.

YOu know what though, it helps with PSA. There is a ton of directed sends here. For a bulldog, this is VERY hard, I think.

You know, I am batting 50/50. LOL. I pass 50% of the trials and tournaments I go to. Funny thing is, I realize how I, not the dog, make the dog fail. To be sure, I have only trialed 6 times. So, I am a rookie. I am still learning to trial. The good thing is, so far, I have never failed in the second attempt. At least I am learning. :lol: :lol: :lol: And I admit, it is fun. And I get great satisfaction from all our club dogs doing well since they are my dogs.

It is like I tell my nurses. "Failure is the BEST teacher if you RESPOND to it and not REACT to it."
HMM, that is interesting but let me make sure I am understanding your post correctly.

So, in the beginning phases, you are putting sleeves in the blind but no decoy? Your dog is being rewarded by a dead sleeve? Is this what you are saying, Peter? My apologies for being unclear.

I tried Frabo's method for searching the blinds with my female. I went to the dollar store when Smooch was a very young puppy (about 3 months) and bought 6 small pylons. I started by teaching her to go around them for a food reward from me. At first I lured her while giving her the "reviere" command and after a few times she was going around it on her own with no luring. I would gradually increase the amount of pylons until she was finally doing 6. She will reviere around anything I tell her now really, I just point to something (say a piece of furniture, large tree whatever) and she goes around it and comes back to me. Only thing is it doesn't teach the dog to look in the blind and I must admit I like seeing dogs do this in trials. It is impressive. However I know Frabo will put food bowls or a ball in the blind so that could be a solution I guess. . However, the judges in Schutzhund don't really seem to care (at least at the trials I have watched) if the dog looks in, they just want them running the blinds fast. It seems to work well for my needs though and if I can find that video clip Frabo took of me and Smooch as a pup with the pylons I will post it. It was so cute.

Good topic. i would also be interested in hearing how others teach their blind search. How many teach it as an obedience exercise first, away from bitework, and how many introduce it during the bitework training?
 

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We train the blinds as a seperate exercise. As a ob command. The dogs must search and actually look in the blind then come back towards you then go to the next blind. There were some dogs that were going and not looking or really coming back, the TD feels that is where you can loose your control and start out on a bad foot for a trial, so he got all the dogs to search then come back to the handler in front then resend them out, so they know they MUSt listen to their handler for the command, not just go and know where to go. I started training the blind as OB cause its alot easier for the handler and more black and white for the dog
 

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good idea Tia

I think I will try that.

Sometimes my mind gets into a zone. LOL.

The thing is, what if the dog finds the reward......the decoy. Can you recall and redirect to another blind. See, this is where real control comes in and I was not prepared for it.

I am going to try your method though. it may be clearer for the dog.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I agree with Tia in that the dog must always be taught to return to its handler after performing the search. That was my impirnting with Smooch, go around the pylon then immediately come back to me for the food reward. Now, she will reviere around a blind on the field and come back to me for either a food or ball reward but usually ball now. So far she has never not come back but so far this is only being done in obedience and not bitework yet but my trainer thinks that may be coming soon so we will see how it goes then.

Peter, can you clarify your method for me? Refer to my above post. Am I understanding you correctly? Thanks..
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Cinder said:
What is "the blind", please?
Look at my avatar.

The blind is the wooden structure in my avatar that the decoy is hiding in. Some trainers use portable blinds made out of material as well.
 
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