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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well, I read some previous posts and I think there is a HUGE HUGE misconception between the two.

A real dog is a personal protection dog. What makes him real is the real life scenarios (changing and never the same) and real life pressures and distractions put on the dog. This is NOT a vicious dog. It cannot be. It is a dog that takes distractions in stride and is a confidence (nerves) monster.

Just taking real life bites does not make him a "real dog". That is a lawsuit and unless you are a complete moron of the first degree, nobody wants this.

"my dog would protect me for real". If I had a nickel for EVERY time I heard that, I would literally be rich. 99.9 of dogs cannot. This is a REAL fact. A real dog is NOT a fear biter. It is a confidence MONSTER. It usually will not growl (unless trained to do so). Why would you wnat to chase the prey (bad guy) away with a threat? A real monster has little threat display. He will be very excited and may bark or wag tail excitedly before he kills you and his eye balls will pop out his head starring you down, never ever leaving the bad guy. The dog will NOT leave its bad guy and go to the family member for support. NEVER!

99.9% of dogs many think of as real dogs are just threat display defence mongers, that have been agitated (trained) to bite. I have seen MANY MANY dogs believed to be REAL (especailly the molisser breeds) run off with real decoy (just because you have a suit or a sleeve does not make you a decoy) pressure. Many will save face by saying, "yes, but the dog only needs one bite". hmmmmmmmmm no. You need courage on man. Usually this is BRED in specifically by a breeder who KNOWS working dogs and drives.

How do they learn drives of a dog????????? Invariably, it is through SPORT. Not always, but 99% of the time.

I have NEVER EVER met a personal protection dog trainer, that I RESPECT, that did not come from a sport dog background. You learn what to look for in a REAL DOG candidate in this areana. Trust me on this. Sport titles are FUN and tells me about the ABILITY OF THE CLUB AND THE TRAINERS. It does not tell me much about the dog. In many cases a sch III is a chicken poop. HOWEVER, during training, many decoys know who the REAL DEAL dogs are. No, they are not REAL until TRANSITIONED to proofed hidden sleeve bites. However, for those sport dogs, the foundation is there.

THAT IS WHAT SPORT DOG WORK DOES. Foundation and imprinting. It is not intended to produce a final product. However, a dog without foundation is CRAP. Bites shallow. No intensity. BAD BAD CONTROL. NO outs.
Why is sport dog training or imprinting crutial? ASK any trainer. When stress comes..............a dog goes back to its foundation, his imprinting. Training this weekend in Oregon, I was TOTALLY REMINDED OF THIS. Foundation foundation foundation.

Now let me clarify, that you DO NOT NEED TO BE IN A CLUB TO DO THIS FOUNDATION. BUT WHERE DO THEY LEARN IT AND DO IT WELL SO NOBODY WILL LAUGH AT YOU?

A sport dog is a dog bred for SPORT. However, that sport is the foundation of all good protection dog training. PP dogs just take it further.

This is what separates the backyard agitators from real trainers. School for most of these trainers is the RING club, Sch club, and ESPECAILLY PSA club.

I am not going to get into Hardwork's message since the moderators have locked it. However, his message was a bit strange for many reasons. People should not listen or believe everything they read.
 

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my dog has been at school now for 1 month, I reeally miss the dog and the trainners say she is comming a long slowly she is finally getting pass the burlap sack and moving up to the sleve. she does not bite well and they are not sure if it's because of her jaw strength and structure.. she is 1/2 eb 1/2 Ab. I asked them to train her to the best within her limits.
They have her very aware now of perpetrators. It was my understanding that she is to fisrt alram, then growl, then protect.. the person enters. I don't think she is up to off because her grip is still week as I said. This trainer looked so wierd that I trusted him to make the most of my beloved lillly.. I hope he wraps it up soon. part of the problem they saaaaaay is they can only work her 10 ins at a time in this humidity
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
You have to have drive to work in protection. Defence or Prey. Gotta have something. With EB blood, it is almost impossible.
Basically, they are creating a fear biter, then? Weary. So bite. Sounds good to you? Fear=bite? That is what you like?
Maybe this is the ONLY way your dog will bite.......out of fear. Most trainers will be man enough to tell you that this is not a suitable dog. This kind of training make ME wary.

If someone breaks in.......................hope for a cool day??????? Are you joking? You are joking with us, right?

Sometimes it is better to say........."hey this is my pet. I better get a better suited dog."
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
oregon was great.

Met some nice people.
Met with Gary Fuller, the ABA judge, again. What a GREAT guy with huge knowledge about ABs. A true gentleman.
Finally met Kyle Symms of Sure Grip. Real nice guy. I liked his ideas about what a real AB should be.
All the whos who of ABs were there. Matt Boyd, etc. Cool to see all those OLD guys. LOL.

Not much of a working event, but we worked a lot of dogs and got to play in a PSA seminar with Ken Schilling. ICE got 1st place in the seminar. :lol: It was just fun. Ken made it fun. Learned a great deal, too. Got invited to work in his PP tournament for money next year. He has some nice dogs in his club, even a blue pit. :wink:

Our bandog I train with (Kismet), a kick ass bandog, got 1st place in hardest hitting. Ice got second. Dammmmm if she was only 30lbs heavier. :lol: :lol:

Chucky was Chucky. Kismet and I both thought Chucky would have won the hardest hitting because he took down the decoy (he is a leg biter). No. Apparently, it is the initial hit that counts, not the dragging the decoy around. :lol: :lol: :lol: he had fun. He got to bite and drag decoys around.

Kismet won first for drag race. Ice won third in sprint. Vega our AB bitch won third in standard female. hahahhahahaahahahahhaha. Show dog. :? But she bites like hell!!!!!! She is Chucky's cousin. :) Funny how they don't say she is too thin and make fun of her for looking like a greyhound when they see her bite. hmmmmmm.

We had a blast. Gary Fuller is the best. I learned so much about hog hunting and what it takes. I also learned about all the bullcrap stuff that has been surrounding the hog catch thing.

We had a blast!
 

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Interesting Thread I have found some of your post very interesting peter unfortunetly it was not this one & i dont quite get the point to it but hey you mentioned me so i thought i would respond just once..... If you like PM for a real conversation.

Where to start??? LOL i could really dig my heels in on this thread but hey i wont, i just dont have the time for a essay....

To start with 99.9% of sports dogs trained at clubs like yourselves would not react in real life situations they are just way to sleeve happy & would not know a real situation if it bit them on the ass, sorry but most sports club training environments are a disgrace.

All you have done at a ring club is condition a dog to bite a sleeve ( this is long term conditioning & ANY dog can do that i repeat ANY DOG???? not so hard LOL Yes you have added some OB into it & good for you that your dogs are better trained & better prepared for real life situations but hey that really is nothing compared to real life situations where people are really attacking you... Do you think that a robber is going to stand there while you give your dog "the bark & hold lol" or do you think giving your dog some hits with a clatter stick or cane is going to train them for a real life situation? hell i see a HUGE difference is sports dogs to real working dogs that work for a living with there handler & i mean a huge difference.

Now to me you are no more mis guided than the people thinking there average dog will protect them, jsut because you have trained him to bite a sleeve, when you have a real criminal coming upto you & your dog & your dog runs & him & gets a slap with a baseball bat or when the criminal starts poking the dog in the eyes? he will run faster than you back to the car.... I have had a dog half blinded & still did not give up

Another point being that what makes me laugh to the extent about sports dog handlers is for instance when you go to the clubs & see dogs with SCH & Ring titles & they are no better than the dog your neighbour has if anything more highly strung & Nervy & lets face it who needs a dog like this?

Hey i dont pretend to know it all & never will stop learning to the day i die BUT hey who am i to say anything "i have only worked with dogs in real life civil situations for the past twenty years & i am sure you guys know alot more" I am no internet warrior & would much rather talk face to face to stop the bitcheness So i am out of the topic now.

All i do say to people on this forum is never rely on what you read on here & allways backup the information with other sources, use this as a means to an end & to Sports trainers LOL
I would suggest you work more with your dog & less with your computer...
 

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Come and see this "sport" dog and tell me he won't bite ya for real...LMAO. Bring a first aid kit along. Challenge this bastard and you will need it. I can think of many other "sport" dog who would do the same. "Hardwork", you may be correct in saying "some" sport dogs won't bite you for real but I would guess you are going to the wrong clubs if you haven't seen a good sport dog. Don't paint them all with the same brush.

 

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INTERNET WARRIORS LOL. its very easy to say that on the internet and incredibly hard to prove. you talk the talk but i doubt you could walk the walk. people spend to much time on the internet. i will not add any more to this post.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
hardwork...may I ask why you said this?

You said I work in a ring club. At the same sentence, you said ring clubs are sleeve happy.

I don't get it. Anyone who works dogs knows we don't use a sleeve.

Now, anther question a real working man would ask is why would you work with a Tervern? I have never seen a REAL tervern. This is a show dog. Where is your mal from? Your AB? What blood lines. I would like to know the civil AB blood lines. AND I think I know a few.

By the way........I train in Ring.....French Ring. AND I train for PSA (a personal protection sport). We do not train for the same scenarios. We do hidden sleeve work. AND take my word for it. EVERY SINGLE DOG I TRAIN AT MY CLUB WILL BITE FOR REAL to protect the owner. We don't work with crappers.

I will tell you this. If you think my sport dogs are a joke, then please post a video of a real dog. I would like to learn from your experience.

What is real life situations? Security guard?????? Buddy, I KNOW what they do. My buddy OWNS a security company! I don't know the laws of your land, but trust me on this. They DO NOT WANT A LIVE BITE. Most are for threats and looks. Some will bite, but they surely cannot afford the quality of dogs needed for competition level work.

Now, the above has been my experience. I am not saying you are wrong, but please don't say sport dogs are a joke. Some are. Some are not. 99.9%????

Good luck to you. may I ask who you learned from?
Does your Ring club appeciate the fact that you think their dogs are crap and your training director's efforts are a joke?
 

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Nice post, PeterC. Now I have a question.....

PeterC said:
I have seen MANY MANY dogs believed to be REAL (especailly the molisser breeds) run off with real decoy (just because you have a suit or a sleeve does not make you a decoy) pressure. Many will save face by saying, "yes, but the dog only needs one bite". hmmmmmmmmm no. You need courage on man. Usually this is BRED in specifically by a breeder who KNOWS working dogs and drives.


Do you consider a REAL decoy someone who brings out the defense drive in a dog? I've heard that not all decoys can do that... or at least it's hard to do. And what makes a REAL decoy real? I mean... how does one go about bringing out the defense in a dog?
 

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Peter I can not agree with you more. When you train in sport work you have alot of prey in most sports such as Sch.or ring its all about prey most of your high prey dogs wont bite for real because of there is no prey in a attack.But a dog that is trained in defence and pressure will protect. All of the dogs we train for PSA will bite for real to protect there family. The thing I like about PSA dogs is they have tobe real

John
 

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Peter,
thank you for restating what I already said, No I do not expect my dog to be a true man stopper, But I only need as do most people IMO a dog that looks mean, barks a little and growls a little, If it bites weather from fear or drive great, but in reality most thugs, would be robbers will leave just knowing a homeowner ownes a dog. regardless of breed! EB ab Pitt Rott Shepard. to a crack head or drug addict it makes no f-ing difference. If a trainned assasian comes to kill me and my family. I realize that I have to handle this situation with the aid of my experiance and my faith in G-d, of course the likely hood of that is nill.

PS it looks like you are working the dog on a sleve in your picture. Do you use a sleve or not I am confused
 

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i'm enjoying this thread....

but it seems like it's taken several different turns......i too am confused....

which one of you trains specifically for protection outside of the ring?

which on trains for sport?
 

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NTERNET WARRIORS LOL. its very easy to say that on the internet and incredibly hard to prove. you talk the talk but i doubt you could walk the walk. people spend to much time on the internet. i will not add any more to this post.
Of course you aren't going to add any more to this thread because that would mean you would have to ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS!!!

Boy, talk about the pot calling the kettle black..lmao. All the time you have spent on this forum under different aliases and you have yet to show ONE picture of any of your dogs being worked, not one picture of yourself doing decoy work and you cannot even give ONE name of a dog that you have titled or give the names of judges who have judged your dogs. You say you hate sport because the dogs wont bite for real but you claim to have titled how many dogs in sport?

YOU are the one who is doing all the talking. I will give ANYONE on this forum a personal invite to come to my club. ANYONE is welcome to come watch our dogs. If you are an experienced helper feel free to work my dog also. I am not going to sit back and make excuses as to why I can't tell you where I train. We having nothing to hide here unlike others who keep everything such a big secret. Everything is all a big secret with you because everything you say is BULLSH*T!!!
 

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Re: oregon was great.

PeterC said:
Met some nice people.
Met with Gary Fuller, the ABA judge, again. What a GREAT guy with huge knowledge about ABs. A true gentleman.
Finally met Kyle Symms of Sure Grip. Real nice guy. I liked his ideas about what a real AB should be.
All the whos who of ABs were there. Matt Boyd, etc. Cool to see all those OLD guys. LOL.

Not much of a working event, but we worked a lot of dogs and got to play in a PSA seminar with Ken Schilling. ICE got 1st place in the seminar. :lol: It was just fun. Ken made it fun. Learned a great deal, too. Got invited to work in his PP tournament for money next year. He has some nice dogs in his club, even a blue pit. :wink:

Our bandog I train with (Kismet), a kick ass bandog, got 1st place in hardest hitting. Ice got second. Dammmmm if she was only 30lbs heavier. :lol: :lol:

Chucky was Chucky. Kismet and I both thought Chucky would have won the hardest hitting because he took down the decoy (he is a leg biter). No. Apparently, it is the initial hit that counts, not the dragging the decoy around. :lol: :lol: :lol: he had fun. He got to bite and drag decoys around.

Kismet won first for drag race. Ice won third in sprint. Vega our AB b-witch won third in standard female. hahahhahahaahahahahhaha. Show dog. :? But she bites like hell!!!!!! She is Chucky's cousin. :) Funny how they don't say she is too thin and make fun of her for looking like a greyhound when they see her bite. hmmmmmm.

We had a blast. Gary Fuller is the best. I learned so much about hog hunting and what it takes. I also learned about all the bullcrap stuff that has been surrounding the hog catch thing.

We had a blast!
Come on Peter, you missed the most important part. The fact that Kis got her GDT and IDT3 :bootyshake:
 

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Wow, interesting thread!

I have a question for all you protection savvy people. What qualities indicate to you that a dog would have the courage to fight an attacker? Personally, and I don't know much about protection sports, I'd say that given the opportunity MY dog would try to run away if I were being attacked. Either that or he'd just stand there :lol: If it were another dog, I'd say he'd stick around and fight, but I don't know for sure.

Also, Pit Bulls were bred to be very people-friendly, and in a lot of cases, bred to be submissive to people (correct me if I'm wrong) So, wouldn't training a Pit Bull in personal protection be a bit of a lost cause? I mean, I'm 99% sure my dog would never bite a person. But yeah, just curious. What do you guys think?
 

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credit said:
Please explain the difference between fear and drive biting. Also I never said the dog was fear biting. Peter did
A dog that bites out of fear is fearful and not confident. This kind of dog is very unpredictable because you never know what could scare him and cause him to bite. Could be a child, a laundry basket, a gun, YOU..... you never know. You really don't want a dog biting out of fear trying to protect you because they're really not trying to protect you, more or less themselves in that situation.
 
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