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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Not to start an argument(shame got to start posts like this!) BUT~ This is STRICTLY for a good-clean-debate concerning reputable breeders.

I think we have all seen posts from members who suggest that it is "the person" and their genuine love of their dogs is what makes a reputable breeder. Some members suggest that it is the person who never makes a dime, health tests and test tests their dogs TO THE ABSOLUTE MAX, is the reputable breeder.

Now, no matter what your belief is on the reputable breeder, what I am curious is, where on earth do you people that state the puppies that reputable breeders sell go for real, real cheap or are given away, find them???

Should the world of bully lovers have to befriend someone who is a rep. breeder in order to obtain a good bully dog??
Or should we continue to buy from BYBs only because these are the dogs the general public can afford? Because I dont care what you say, a rep. breeder does not sell dogs from worthy parents for usually less then a couple grand! If you dont believe me, try locating a puppy from two GCH that have been health tested, temperment tested and Schutzhund trained....because they just dont exist.

This whole BYB subject takes many roads, and it has really got me thinking as well as many others Im sure. Especially since I KNOW of a few "worthy" show lines, with GCH, that are throwin bad genes, and have never been reported. How can they be listed as rep breeders??? Still some defend them.

I guess I dont understand so much, as if it were some peoples way, they'd put an end to the breed due to the fact they'd ALL be spayed and nuetered because none are worthy in their eyes.

I personally would love to take my time and train my dogs and eventually show them at my convenience. But some say it has to be done right off, or else they need to be nuetered.

Civil people, opinions on the subject please.
 

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Show vs Working vs Companions

I only know what my vet has in his office about his boxers and what I have seen on the DOg shows competitions televised on like USA and teh Animal Planet. They are a very disciplined dog with very disciplined up bringings.

Working and companions I sometimes lump into one, Police SNR's seeing eye and such are all what I deem working but they serve as coompanions to there handlers and their families. To this I may get barred beaten or stoned when I say almost any dog will serve well mutts pure breds and custom breeeds. My APBT was a great companion as well as a hard working dog - he assisted with some minor SNR work and training My EB was a terrfic companion. MY OEB hopefully when she gets older and learns more will serve as a SNR and companion. This I think can come from a BYB (please do't hurt me) If you have aperson willing to care for their dog and the puppies and do it right with the well being of the dog not the specific breed in mind (the breed goes no where if the dog is ignored right?)

I guess what i tried to say is - IF YOU HAVE A BREEEDER WHO HAS THE BEST INTEREST OF THE DOG AND THE PROSPECTED OFFSPRING, KEEPING IN MIND THE LINES OF THE DOG OR ANCESTORY - I THINK THAT IS A GOOD BREEDER. REGARDLESS IF HE SKATES BY ON LOW BALLING THE PRICE OR IF HE ASKS TOP DOLLAR. AND THEN FOLLOWS THROUGH WITH KEEPING TABS ON THE PUPS.

Again my novice opinion
 

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Good debate topic.

However, I don't know anyone who ever said that great quality dogs are ALL given away, however, they are most certainly NOT sold to just any anonymous person that the owner/breeder doesn't know. Many people have paid a decent sum of money for great quality pups/dogs, however, price does NOT equal quality. The most expensive dog I ever bought was $700 & his sire was a Gr. Ch. & his dam a Ch. Both had been worked, shown, & tested for years before they were bred, & even then, the owner/breeder took the breedings very seriously & did her best to match stud to bitch. However, I would've never been able to get this dog had I not been active in the APBT community beforehand learning & educating myself. This person would've never sold me a dog if I had just been some Joe Shmoe off the streets & that's the way it should be. Now, I'm sure everyone will start crying "But I still want a pit bull & just b/c I'm don't know anyone doesn't mean I shouldn't have one". Well, actually, that's right. The APBT is NOT a breed for everyone & it's in dire danger b/c just about everyone has one. The APBT circles used to be a lot tighter. They weren't snobbish by any means, but the owners/breeders DID want a newbie to become involved in the breed by reading & greeting people & learning about the breed before obtaining one. As most know, before the late 1970's, the vast majority of people didn't really even know what an APBT was.

Now, as to the topic of free dogs or cheaper dogs, well, like I said "price does NOT equal quality". The few dogs on our yard that we got from others (those we didn't breed & keep), were either given to us, farmed to us, or sold to us for a decent price. Now why so "cheap"? Because they knew us, we knew them, they knew we loved our dogs, & they knew we WORKED our dogs to keep the working aspect of this WORKING breed alive. Responsible owners/breeders don't care about making money off their dogs, they care about seeing the breed extend into the next generation & are always willing to help accomplish that task by placing several dogs into the hands of people that they comfortably feel can accomplish that task.

Nowadays, 99.9% of the time, when you see a dog for over $500, the chances are the person selling them is just looking for easy money. Especially if the dogs pedigrees are subpar, the dogs are physically not even close to the breed standard, the parent dogs have temperament issues, & especially if the pups come from NON-WORKING parents. One canNOT continue on the progress of a working breed by breeding dogs who have done nothing but be sweet & pretty. By breeding sweet & pretty dogs, the breed is ruined.
 

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I don't know if you ever read any of Bybee's post when she was on here a while back, but I would consider her to be a very reputable breeder. She answered all my questions, and I was very impressed with her response. I would buy from her in a heartbeat, if I were looking for an AB. (Perhaps someday!) She does sell her pups, to both pet homes and working homes, and they are amazing dogs.

To say that ONLY or ALL "reputable" breeders GIVE their pups away, or keep them all for their own yard, is a very ignorant statement. Just because they have a price on their pups, doesn't mean they are BYBs.

Just my 2 cents. Feel free to disagree, but I stand firm on this one.
 

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He didnt say reputable breeders give their dogs away, he is plainly saying they do not sell their pups to make money. Also they do not just sell the dogs to any person that has the money.
 

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bigut64 said:
He didnt say reputable breeders give their dogs away, he is plainly saying they do not sell their pups to make money. Also they do not just sell the dogs to any person that has the money.
Oh I wasn't responding to anyone's post.. actually I only read the original post. I was merely stating my opinion and how I feel about "reputable breeders."

Sorry if I offended anyone. Well, no I'm not. I spoke what I feel is true. I don't really have to apologize for that, do I? :D
 

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In my opinion a reputable breeder, has to do alot more then just love the breed, and their dogs. They must do HCL testing, as well as Hips, those are an absolute MUST. Ideally they would work and prove every dog they breed, but I know that doesn't happen with the best of breeders even. They all MUST be temperment tested!!!! I don't think a dog should be bred just because you love it, the dog being bred must better the breed. Every Reputable breeder, breeds to make the breed better! :D
 

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Bremner53 said:
In my opinion a reputable breeder, has to do alot more then just love the breed, and their dogs. They must do HCL testing, as well as Hips, those are an absolute MUST. Ideally they would work and prove every dog they breed, but I know that doesn't happen with the best of breeders even. They all MUST be temperment tested!!!! I don't think a dog should be bred just because you love it, the dog the is being bred must better the breed. Every Reputable breeder, breeds to make the breed better! :D
I agree completely! And a reputable breeder has good homes lined up for every single puppy prior to breeding.
 

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OK, just a question here. Take my dog for instance. I took him in for all the necessary health testing. For instance, his hips, eyes, elbows,knees. Just all the routine testing that I felt was necessary before I make the decision to breed. (NCL is not something I thought you had to worry about in bulldogges, but after hearing all of you I will have it done :wink: ) These tests were performed at my vets office, and I only got his opinion on them. He is not quite two yet so I did not have them sent to OFA until then. Anyways, now that I have performed all these tests, but never worked him, and if I bred him, what would that make me??? I have ethics, and would never ever breed a dog that I didn't feel was healthy enough for it. Obviously I don't want to throw out bad genes and have the buyers come back on me or give me a bad name. If and when I breed, I would keep several pups. (Theres another reason I would not want to produce poor pups) So just wondering what you guys think of this???
 

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maryserratos said:
OK, just a question here. Take my dog for instance. I took him in for all the necessary health testing. For instance, his hips, eyes, elbows,knees. Just all the routine testing that I felt was necessary before I make the decision to breed. (NCL is not something I thought you had to worry about in bulldogges, but after hearing all of you I will have it done :wink: ) These tests were performed at my vets office, and I only got his opinion on them. He is not quite two yet so I did not have them sent to OFA until then. Anyways, now that I have performed all these tests, but never worked him, and if I bred him, what would that make me??? I have ethics, and would never ever breed a dog that I didn't feel was healthy enough for it. Obviously I don't want to throw out bad genes and have the buyers come back on me or give me a bad name. If and when I breed, I would keep several pups. (Theres another reason I would not want to produce poor pups) So just wondering what you guys think of this???
If you get your dogs OFA, and they both pass, and you temperment tested your dogs, then I would say you have a good start. I think you would have to learn alot about breeding. I don't think anyone should breed with out proper education about it. I wouldn't say you would be a reputable breeder yet, cause you wouldn't have a reputation. :p

IMO, I still think at least one of the dogs being bred MUST be worked, to prove themselves, I wouldn't buy a pup from anyone that hasn't, but that is just my opinion
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
What about the diseases that cannot be tested for, but are absolutly dangerous and lethal to the breed like Cerrebellum Ataxia???You can test all you want and never find it until the best of the best has produced a few litters and spread it everywhere.
 

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sajoseph said:
What about the diseases that cannot be tested for, but are absolutly dangerous and lethal to the breed like Cerrebellum Ataxia???You can test all you want and never find it until the best of the best has produced a few litters and spread it everywhere.
Sajoseph-I am terribly sorry that this happened to your puppy, you know this. But like you said, this is something that you can not test for therefore how could you have known. It could happen to anybody. Be it a byb or a "reputable breeder". There alot of risks when someone chooses to breed, no matter how much they educate themselves.
 

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Or should we continue to buy from BYBs only because these are the dogs the general public can afford?
Obviously it's one of the major problems ~ to purchase a puppy is just as simple as can be. BYB's plop them out, and people scoop them up. They don't want to pay much money for the puppy, the puppy sadly is just as easily cast away or disposable as it was just as easy to purchase. Puppies don't stay puppies, and these people (byb) aren't caring what happened to the puppies they produced. Millions of dogs and cats are killed every year, because people lose interest, they don't care, and when they have time they can just get another puppy out of the paper. There are more dogs, than there are people! If everyone would simply put the same thought into a puppy as they do say a house/boat/car/four wheeler etc., then they wouldn't be so quick to cast them aside and scoop up another one when they selfishly decide they are ready again. IF they would do research, save up the money, and purchased a puppy with the best of intentions for it's life wouldn't you be more apt to take care of it than one you picked up free out of the newspaper? Most people do little if any research at all into a type of breed when they purchase it anyway. That or they have intentions of breeding from the start. If you can't afford to pay for a dog, then how can you afford to provide it will proper nutrition, proper training, and proper health care. What if it gets cancer, or another disease ~ where will the money come from for that? The answer is that in general, people do not do any of the above, they won't, and they don't care when it really comes down to it.
The general public needs to learn to ADOPT, and to support the millions of dogs needing homes. They are priced range just as low as the newspaper adds yet come already fixed, and sometimes already trained. :D Puppies are killed every single day as well, what's wrong with one of those puppies? If your not going to breed, then why not. The general public needs to stop breeding their pets, or letting their dogs in heat/dogs in general run amuck in neighborhoods. I see those ads all the time like it's funny ~ Free puppies 1/2 Lab and 1/2 neighborhood stud, I find it disgusting. Continually supporting them only encourages them to breed again, because that was the easiest probably $600 they will ever make. There will still be plenty of dogs coming into the shelters, and still be people breeding regardless. Though if more people took the time to pay attention, and to learn it WOULD help!

I think the so called "reputable breeder" word, is sometimes handed out way too easily. What are you reputable for? Producing some good puppies, hanging out in all the dog world functions? In my opinion, I could care less if you have a show dog that won some titles! So freaking what, your dog is pretty, or has nice confirmation. They don't prove a thing! There is no temperment test, there is no ability test, there is only ONE person the judge that says your dog was the best that day. Was it really? More than likely not, it's all in what that judge preferred. If your going to breed working breeds than they should work, going to breed some retrievers they should damn well be able to retrieve, going to breed a companion breed than they should be the excellent companions, going to breed a herding dog than pick two excellent specimens that compliment each other and can actually HERD. Some ribbons and a trophy along with some health tests, don't impress me at all. I'd hope there is something else about that dog other than what it did in a ring. Yet to hear some people tell it ~ those are the ones you want. Those dogs are top notch? :?: :?:

I'm not perfect, and I myself learn something new everyday. I still need help, on what for some may be the simplest of things. My dogs aren't perfect either, and I'm not saying they are. Nor, was where Ben was purchased from the wisest decision! The above is just my opinion about some things. Will I ever again purchase a working breed as simply a companion dog? NO, I will not. I have learned, and trying to share info I have learned just with my friends and family is a job in itself. After my current dogs pass, I can say that I will never again own another "pit bull" strictly as a pet, unless I rescue one in need from a shelter. Otherwise, I'd have to have the time on my hands to give them a job to keep them completely stable and happy, by providing them with what they need. Is this really relevant? lol, no not really but I wanted to put it out there before anyone took offense or thought I was talking straight to them.
 

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I tend to stay out of these threads since I've never bred a dog, nor do I plan on it.

But something that Jenn said got me thinking.

The problem is that a lot of people feel that it is a RIGHT to own an animal, when in all actuality it's a privilege. The reason I say this is because it costs money to own a dog, and not everyone can afford that cost.

Now, I bought my dog from a BYB before I had even heard the term. I knew puppy mills were bad, and sell dogs and cats in petstores is illegal in Illinois(I believe, I'm 95% on that one). That left the shelter. I really wanted a puppy, but the shelter didn't have any, so Dennis bought Haus from a friend. Thankfully, that friend is getting Haus' mom fixed because they are expecting their first child.

I knew it wouldn't be a walk in the park, but I had NO idea what I was getting myself into. I stumbled across this forum, and absorbed as much knowledge as I could. I was researching 10 hours a day.

Dennis wanted to breed Haus when we first got him, and keep half the litter to sell. I quickly shot down the idea, because I knew I wouldn't have the energy to care for Haus AND 3-4 puppies. It took a bit more convincing, but Dennis is finally onboard with the neuter idea. Haus will be neutered soon.

Ok, now I'm just rambling, I really did have a point when I started this. Oh yes, the privilege of owning an animal. With the sense of entitlement that comes from living in North America, many people who should not own a pet, are getting them. And as long as BYB's continue to pump out the pups, people will continue to buy. And the shelters will continue to fill. Sad, but true.
 

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HausMommy said:
Now, I bought my dog from a BYB before I had even heard the term. I knew puppy mills were bad, and sell dogs and cats in petstores is illegal in Illinois(I believe, I'm 95% on that one). That left the shelter. I really wanted a puppy, but the shelter didn't have any, so Dennis bought Haus from a friend. Thankfully, that friend is getting Haus' mom fixed because they are expecting their first child.
That was exactly our situation. We wanted a puppy, so we checked the humane society, and they didn't have any. I didn't know about petfinder.com or pbrc.net or any of those great resources. I knew puppy mills and pet stores were bad, but I'd never had an experience with a reputable breeder, so I ignorantly assumed that they just bred show dogs and sold them for thousands of dollars. I had no idea what "backyard breeding" was and that we should have avoided it. I'm glad I know now, and I'm so glad Destiny is getting fixed!
 

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HausMommy said:
I tend to stay out of these threads since I've never bred a dog, nor do I plan on it.

But something that Jenn said got me thinking.

The problem is that a lot of people feel that it is a RIGHT to own an animal, when in all actuality it's a privilege. The reason I say this is because it costs money to own a dog, and not everyone can afford that cost.

Now, I bought my dog from a BYB before I had even heard the term. I knew puppy mills were bad, and sell dogs and cats in petstores is illegal in Illinois(I believe, I'm 95% on that one). That left the shelter. I really wanted a puppy, but the shelter didn't have any, so Dennis bought Haus from a friend. Thankfully, that friend is getting Haus' mom fixed because they are expecting their first child.

I knew it wouldn't be a walk in the park, but I had NO idea what I was getting myself into. I stumbled across this forum, and absorbed as much knowledge as I could. I was researching 10 hours a day.

Dennis wanted to breed Haus when we first got him, and keep half the litter to sell. I quickly shot down the idea, because I knew I wouldn't have the energy to care for Haus AND 3-4 puppies. It took a bit more convincing, but Dennis is finally onboard with the neuter idea. Haus will be neutered soon.

Ok, now I'm just rambling, I really did have a point when I started this. Oh yes, the privilege of owning an animal. With the sense of entitlement that comes from living in North America, many people who should not own a pet, are getting them. And as long as BYB's continue to pump out the pups, people will continue to buy. And the shelters will continue to fill. Sad, but true.

Actually I think you have it backwards. As long as there are people willing to pay money for dogs and don't want one from a shelter, there will always be BYBs.

It is called supply and demand. If there was no demand for all the dogs, then BYBs would go out of business. I hate to break it to people but hoenstly there are NOT enough quality breeders to sell dogs to people. There is also a short supply of quality owners.

BYBs aren't going away and we are always going to have shelters.

It is no different than the "War on Drugs". You have to educate the users and get rid of them because if there is a demand for something then someone will go into business to provide the product that is wanted.
 

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jleonar said:
You have to educate the users and get rid of them because if there is a demand for something then someone will go into business to provide the product that is wanted.
I agree that this is a huge problem too. Both Leeann and I were in the same boat. I had NO idea about petfinder.com or pbrc. The only thing I knew about was the Humane Society.

I agree if the public was more aware of other resources, then we may be able to put a dent in the BYB problem. However, the shelters and rescues simple don't have enough funding to compete with all the BYB's.
 

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My understanding of the "reputable breeders don't make money" theory is NOT that they give away their pups or sell them cheaply. It's that before they ever breed a dog, they've spent a goodly amount of money on health care/testing, training & titling their dog, then they spend more money on the health care of the breeding bitch and her puppies, and on ensuring that they puppies have the best possible environment for their first 8-12 weeks. So by the time the litter goes out the door to their new families, the breeder is likely to just break even. Furthermore, since a reputable breeder will only breed a given bitch 2 or 3 times, then retire her, it's not like you can amortize the costs of raising/training/titling her over a whole bunch of puppies. Maybe stud dogs bring more net profit...?

And as far as non-testable problems is concerned, EVERY breeder runs this risk. But a reputable breeder can minimize this risk in several ways:

If they breed X bitch to Y dog and even ONE puppy in that litter shows Z disease while with the breeder, both parent dogs are neutered and all the puppies in that litter are sold as pets with strict spay/neuter contracts. Careful watch is put on other litters from X and Y (mated with each other or with other dogs). X's and Y's siblings are also watched for outbreaks of the disease.

The breeder must keep in close contact with their puppies' new owners and continue getting health information about the pups as they mature. If any of the pups/dogs develop Z disease later in life, ALL pup owners are notified and neutered. If one has already been bred, careful watch is put on all of their offspring to check for another outbreak.

Just my thoughts on the matter. And, no, much as I hate to admit it we're probably never going to really get rid of puppy mills. But if we can educate people about the number of dogs euthanized each year, the wonderfulness of adopting an adult dog, the responsibilities involved in owning a dog, and what to look for in a reputable breeder, maybe we can whittle their numbers down.
 
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