I have been reading alot of articles about the history of the american bulldog and I am still kinda confused. From what I understand there were the original English Bulldogs that were in England and they were much like the American Bulldog (size, shape, etc..) then they came over to America and we called it the American Bulldog and started breeding to get the French and English Bulldogs that are common. So is the American Bulldog the actual original English Bulldog or am I way off?? I'm just trying to figure out where they started and how we came up with all the variations. Thanks!
The true history of the AB
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As I understand it, when they brought the first Bulldogs with them to North America, they were still the larger, leggier variety, the kind that was bred to fight bulls...
In England, they then banned bull-baiting and breed a less aggressive dog that eventually evolved into the Old English Bulldog...
In North America, the dog was used as an all-purpose farm dog...and that dog is known as the English White (or White English) Bulldog...
These were also kept pure-breeding by many land-owners and others...
Eventually Johnson made an effort to develop the breed to his liking...hence the Johnson Bulldog...Scott and others played a role...developing the performance lines...
In England, they then banned bull-baiting and breed a less aggressive dog that eventually evolved into the Old English Bulldog...
In North America, the dog was used as an all-purpose farm dog...and that dog is known as the English White (or White English) Bulldog...
These were also kept pure-breeding by many land-owners and others...
Eventually Johnson made an effort to develop the breed to his liking...hence the Johnson Bulldog...Scott and others played a role...developing the performance lines...
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Actually I am planning on getting a Ol Southern White Type American Bulldog sometime next year from http://www.joshuakennels.com/
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The true history of the American Bulldog as it is known now? Well, the honest truth is the breed is still in it's infancy....it only became an "official" breed in the 1960's. As far as what breeds are in it's make-up and ancestry..... bull and terrier breeds. There has been American Pitbull Terrier, English Bulldog, Catahoula Leopard Dog, Pointer, St. Bernard, Dogue De Beardeaux, Bullmastiff...and many other, bull, terrier and molosser breeds in the soup.
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carrie is right...alot of the old timers had a formula to make a bulldog..i would like to add when the english bulldog was used with the pits,mastiffs and all the other breeds in the soup the eb was not the same eb as today.the spanish that came to florida had bulldogs/mastiffs also.did any bulldogs come on the mayflower?nobody knows there is no proof.anyway what a great dog they are 4-real...rsCarrie said:
I was reading on the website ( http://www.joshuakennels.com/ ) posted by Jemhidiahssj4 under the History that the American Bulldog is the original English Bulldog. I have read that many times but the way it was worded was unclear, this website though makes it pretty clear that all of the other bulldogs came from our American Bulldogs. If anyone knows of other good sites to look at for info on the AB's please let me know. Thanks.
redbull said:
Of course there is an original...they started somehere around the 1700-1800's and used for bull-baiting as Rue2 said earlier. From there over the decades is when there started to be the different types that were used for different reasons and in different parts of the country.
From what I understand...
I have an AB as well and like a lot of people did a lot of research before buying my dog. This is what I've learned from it...
The American Bulldog is not the original bull baiting dog but is the closest in resemblence (out of all the bully breeds) to the dogs of the 17th and 18th centuries that were used for that purpose. The origianl bull baiting dogs were just a little bit leggier, and the snout somewhat shorter to enable them to hold onto the bulls nose and still beable to breath.
After bull baiting was made illegal the breed almost went extinct in the late 18th century. Many of the dogs were being bred down in size to become more adaptable to being family pets. It is said the AB underwent the fewest modifications. It was at that time people were bringing them to the US south and they became known as plantation dogs, or Old English whites where they were bred down in height some. They were then used to help drive young bulls, catch hogs, gaurd the farms, and for pit fighting. One of the oldest bloodlines of these dogs and the closest to origianl plantation dogs is the Alapaha Blue Blood bulldog, this is the rarest of the breed with only about 170 world wide and 700 or so ever bred. People argue this to be a whole seperate breed from the AB. However I believe it's just another bloodline like the Scott or Johnson type kept in it's pure form without any cross breeding.
The American Bulldog almost went extinct again earning it's spot on the rare breed list where it still resides to this day. It was after World War II that the Johnson family started a breeding program to save the dogs, and by the 60's-70's time frame Allen Scott started breeding his dogs with Mr. Johnson's AB's and this is where the now standard AB comes from.
It wasn't even till 1999 that the american bulldog was recognized by the united kennel club.
As far as whether or not the AB is in it's origianl form from the 1700's or maybe even later the answer is no... It was crossed with terriers and other bull breeds after bull baiting was made illegal. The AB just wasn't crossed as much, the AB was not nearley as popular as the other bully breeds which is what led to it becoming almost extinct.
Well hope this helps and who knows how much of it is exact... i wasn't there to watch it all take place
I have an AB as well and like a lot of people did a lot of research before buying my dog. This is what I've learned from it...
The American Bulldog is not the original bull baiting dog but is the closest in resemblence (out of all the bully breeds) to the dogs of the 17th and 18th centuries that were used for that purpose. The origianl bull baiting dogs were just a little bit leggier, and the snout somewhat shorter to enable them to hold onto the bulls nose and still beable to breath.
After bull baiting was made illegal the breed almost went extinct in the late 18th century. Many of the dogs were being bred down in size to become more adaptable to being family pets. It is said the AB underwent the fewest modifications. It was at that time people were bringing them to the US south and they became known as plantation dogs, or Old English whites where they were bred down in height some. They were then used to help drive young bulls, catch hogs, gaurd the farms, and for pit fighting. One of the oldest bloodlines of these dogs and the closest to origianl plantation dogs is the Alapaha Blue Blood bulldog, this is the rarest of the breed with only about 170 world wide and 700 or so ever bred. People argue this to be a whole seperate breed from the AB. However I believe it's just another bloodline like the Scott or Johnson type kept in it's pure form without any cross breeding.
The American Bulldog almost went extinct again earning it's spot on the rare breed list where it still resides to this day. It was after World War II that the Johnson family started a breeding program to save the dogs, and by the 60's-70's time frame Allen Scott started breeding his dogs with Mr. Johnson's AB's and this is where the now standard AB comes from.
It wasn't even till 1999 that the american bulldog was recognized by the united kennel club.
As far as whether or not the AB is in it's origianl form from the 1700's or maybe even later the answer is no... It was crossed with terriers and other bull breeds after bull baiting was made illegal. The AB just wasn't crossed as much, the AB was not nearley as popular as the other bully breeds which is what led to it becoming almost extinct.
Well hope this helps and who knows how much of it is exact... i wasn't there to watch it all take place
Bull Baiting was outlawed in 1835, and the practice began well before 1700. I doubt the AB looks exactly like the dog used back then, but some of them may be close. Look up some of the artwork from that era (pre-1800) and see what the dogs looked like, there is quite a bit of variation.
On the history, when Bull Baiting was outlawed the culture went 2 directions: Dog fighting, and show/family dogs. The Dog fighters were bred to terriers to make them smaller and faster, eventually leading to the APBT (these were also called Nanny dogs at one point due to the fact that they stayed home with the children all day and fought at night). The show/family dogs were bred to Pugs, giving the dog the squished in face and health problems that they have today.
Leavitt created the Olde English Bulldogge using collected arwork from the appropriate periods (pre-1835). Others have created their own versions using examples of dogs from after 1835, or created them based on what will sell, what looks good, what they like, etc.
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Check out the blue links on the left side of this page, particularly History and Breedfacts:
http://www.moloss.com/brd/ab/b012/
It has a lot of useful information of the original bear and bull baiting dogs of Europe.
http://www.moloss.com/brd/ab/b012/
It has a lot of useful information of the original bear and bull baiting dogs of Europe.
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Remember one thing bulldogs origanally where bred for what they could do not how they looked. Breading has changed alot since the introduction of shows. When ever a dog is bred for looks the seem to lose there function.
bulldogs verried in looks.
Breaders keep taking the bulldogs picture they prefer and saying this is a bulldog.
When you look at all of them from those time periods the very alot.
From the Pitbull look to the American bulldog look or the Old english look.
Many breeds are divided looks verses function.
siberian husky vs alaskin husky
looks function
johnson AB vs Scott AB
looks function
You get the picture.
I own and love the AB but alot of Pitbull owners believe there dogs are the true bulldogs.
who am I to dissagree Pitbull's are awsome bulldogs too.
Jeff
bulldogs verried in looks.
Breaders keep taking the bulldogs picture they prefer and saying this is a bulldog.
When you look at all of them from those time periods the very alot.
From the Pitbull look to the American bulldog look or the Old english look.
Many breeds are divided looks verses function.
siberian husky vs alaskin husky
looks function
johnson AB vs Scott AB
looks function
You get the picture.
I own and love the AB but alot of Pitbull owners believe there dogs are the true bulldogs.
who am I to dissagree Pitbull's are awsome bulldogs too.
Jeff
amber81 said:
The original bulldog was a wardog called the Alaunt. They were used in war FAR before bull-baiting became a sport. The Alaunt was the precursor to many bull breeds and molossars. There were many types that came after the alaunt.
But I mean, yes there was a time whne there was the first standard written, but the dogs existed well before any written standard.
ps: any myth about any certain dog being the true bulldog is just a myth , ppl jus like to feel special
I found some info online that some of you may find pretty interesting. First, a couple of painting taken from etchings made near the end of hte Bull-baiting Era. First "Wasp, Child, and Billy" from 1806, said at the time to be the last of the original Bulldogs. The painting shows almost cropped-looking ears, but in the etching they look Rose.
Also, "Crib and Rosa" from 1817.
Descriptions I've found say the dogs at the time were closer to the 50 pound mark, and that the practice could actually be traced back to the 1200's or earlier. They were purposefully on the small side because they would approach the bull from a low position to avoid the bulls horns. The noses look shorter and a bit bullier, but in general they look similar to a small version of a Johnson AB.
Now, even more interesting was this quote I found online: "In the early 1980's or about J.D. Johnson sent one of his NKC American Bulldog bitches to be out-crossed to a champion English Bulldog. This is a FACT Johnson's Bullmead's Queen was half English Bulldog, her sire was Westchamp's High Hopes." The interesting part is that Bullmead was the name of Dave Leavitts kennel, and that High Hopes was one of his foundation dogs for the OEB!
I know that JDJ Georgia Girl was also one of the foundation dogs that Leavitt used, but I guess I never put 2 and 2 together to realize that JDJ was JD Johnson? Anyone know if Georgia Girl was an AB? In the picture I have she doesn't really look it. Also, now that I know a bit more about them, Westchamps High Hopes was also crossed with Pepper Pot of Alan Scott for the OEB's foundation. Anyone know anything about Pepper Pot?
To all the AB enthusiasts out there, does this sound right?
Oh, and sorry to highjack the thread.
Also, "Crib and Rosa" from 1817.
Descriptions I've found say the dogs at the time were closer to the 50 pound mark, and that the practice could actually be traced back to the 1200's or earlier. They were purposefully on the small side because they would approach the bull from a low position to avoid the bulls horns. The noses look shorter and a bit bullier, but in general they look similar to a small version of a Johnson AB.
Now, even more interesting was this quote I found online: "In the early 1980's or about J.D. Johnson sent one of his NKC American Bulldog bitches to be out-crossed to a champion English Bulldog. This is a FACT Johnson's Bullmead's Queen was half English Bulldog, her sire was Westchamp's High Hopes." The interesting part is that Bullmead was the name of Dave Leavitts kennel, and that High Hopes was one of his foundation dogs for the OEB!
I know that JDJ Georgia Girl was also one of the foundation dogs that Leavitt used, but I guess I never put 2 and 2 together to realize that JDJ was JD Johnson? Anyone know if Georgia Girl was an AB? In the picture I have she doesn't really look it. Also, now that I know a bit more about them, Westchamps High Hopes was also crossed with Pepper Pot of Alan Scott for the OEB's foundation. Anyone know anything about Pepper Pot?
To all the AB enthusiasts out there, does this sound right?
Oh, and sorry to highjack the thread.
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Good for you. congratulations.GOT14U said:
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The bulldog origanally wasn't a type but what the dog did! As their job became more specialized so did their type. People decided what specialized features needed to be bred for to have a better bulldog. The dog we know as the English bulldog came about in the late 1800's. All we have to do check bulldog history to prove this. Leggier bulldogs where still around in the early 1900's. Granted after the bullbaiting ban people started to breed for a more socialable temperment. As far as the American Bulldog goes it is not the bulldog of old. Similar appearance yes. AB are just too big. A bulldog of old probally rarely hit 50#.
For a different twist on American Bulldog History....
Ever heard of the white english bulldog preservation society ? It's not the english bulldog you are thinking of.....check it out, especially the breed standards & history sections http://www.bttbab.com/
Disclaimer: You can join the society, dues are mentioned, but it is only for maintaining the website, not a business. And there are no forums mentioned.
Ever heard of the white english bulldog preservation society ? It's not the english bulldog you are thinking of.....check it out, especially the breed standards & history sections http://www.bttbab.com/
Disclaimer: You can join the society, dues are mentioned, but it is only for maintaining the website, not a business. And there are no forums mentioned.
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white english bulldog...not heard of that, just heard of the "southern bulldogge".
There are sooooo many "types" out there.
What about the Arkansas Bulldogge? Dont know much of those.
There are sooooo many "types" out there.
What about the Arkansas Bulldogge? Dont know much of those.
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