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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I finally managed to get some videos of the boys at training. The quality isn't very good, and my husband needs some training as a camera man. But oh well, here they are.

Eros training on a hold and bark with a call-off and a resend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E13CQRmgQFw

Eros training for a carjacking with bite suit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbcpiU7ciGI

Eros training for a carjacking with bite sleeve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkvap9yzbtE

Eros deploying from the vehicle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbWyU_nyJDY

Jaeger (24wks old) learning bitework.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57ns21fA2oM
 

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Carla.

Honestly, I say this with all due respect. Everything was very poor. The bark and hold was bad. Very bad. I am truly sorry. This CANNOT be a schutzhund club. There is no way.
Car jacking.........I have never seen a car jacking done with a presented sleeve. It is done with a hidden and the decoy tries to DESTROY the dog. There is no realism here. This is civil scenario. Realism. I am going to try to post a video in the next few days.

If I may suggest, if you do want to work your own dog without the help of a formal club, please set the bite first on a post. It seems you have skipped some steps. JMO.

I think you really do want to train your dog, which is admirable. So, why would it be so hard to learn from the guys who are very good at it, schutzhund, ring, or psa club. I think you will get a lot of benefit there.

To me, your dogs do not look comfortable, especially on the bark and hold and on the bite, it seems they are always ready to pop off.

I promise. I think you will like the sch or ring club. With all this enthusiasm, it would be a shame to waste your energies.

Good luck.
 

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The second video is really hard to see the actual bite and grip, its not hidden so the car jacking scene of it all is not even a secenrio, its just sleeve work, car jacking point is for the dog not to know what is coming to protect you. The video of the dog jumping out of the car, "deploying", any dog should be able to do this. I tell my dogs to "hop" and they go in and out of anything! 8) The helper on the last video shows me why your dogs training isnt very good, theres no movement, no knowledge, the helperwork is horrible. I agree with peter glad to see you have the energy to train, just go soemwhere else and learn from someone who KNOWS what they r doing, in training and helperwork.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: Carla.

PeterC said:
Honestly, I say this with all due respect. Everything was very poor. The bark and hold was bad. Very bad. I am truly sorry. This CANNOT be a schutzhund club. There is no way.
Car jacking.........I have never seen a car jacking done with a presented sleeve. It is done with a hidden and the decoy tries to DESTROY the dog. There is no realism here. This is civil scenario. Realism. I am going to try to post a video in the next few days.

If I may suggest, if you do want to work your own dog without the help of a formal club, please set the bite first on a post. It seems you have skipped some steps. JMO.

I think you really do want to train your dog, which is admirable. So, why would it be so hard to learn from the guys who are very good at it, schutzhund, ring, or psa club. I think you will get a lot of benefit there.

To me, your dogs do not look comfortable, especially on the bark and hold and on the bite, it seems they are always ready to pop off.

I promise. I think you will like the sch or ring club. With all this enthusiasm, it would be a shame to waste your energies.

Good luck.
The guy that we are using (which is the decoy in the videos) has been training dogs for over 25yrs. He has trained countless dogs for police departments, personal protection, and work in schutzhund, psa, and ring. I have talked to plenty of people, including police officers, that are very satisfied with his work. He is also a dual certified guide dog instructor. I am not exactly sure what is being done wrong. I have even sent the videos to my friend that helps train military dogs and he said that they looked great. So I don't know. Ugh!


Also, this was Eros' first session ever training on a car jacking.
The deploying was actually: me "pumping gas" and an attacker came up and grabbed me. Eros then deployed from the vehicle and subdued the threat. My husband was playing with the other video camera and forgot to move this one, I guess. The other camera has some better quality video, but we can't get it to download to our computer.

Peter, please explain what should be different about the hold and bark.
What does
please set the bite first on a post.
mean???
 

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The videos are grainy and you can not tell at all how the dogs grips are. Even judging the targetting is a bit difficult due to the quality of the video . Was this done on purpose?

In the video of Eros's hold and bark, why is he guarding the helper from so far away? He looks like he wants to leave and at one point looked like he started to. Definitely some conflict there, either with you, or with the helper, or maybe even both. The dog does not look confident in himself at all and the video does not show him taking any pressure at all. That dog would probably pop off the bite if the helper actually applied any pressure to him. Show us the dog being driven hard by the helper and taking some stick hits at least. If the conflict he is showing is coming form you, the handler, then the last thing you should be doing is call offs wih your dog..that will make theproblem worse!

Next time you video a "car jacking" scenario, have the camera man record it from the passenger side of the vehicle. Again, we can see very little from those vidoes, besides the poor helper work. HMM. Why is the dog being fed the sleeve? Again, no pressure! These are mature, adult dogs with training experience aren't they? Where is the actual threat from the decoy? All that decoy is doing is coming up to the truck and sticking the sleeve in the dogs face. Big deal. Where is the threat to the dog? Do you think in a real life situation that a bad guy is going to calmly walk up to your truck and stick his arm in your dogs face for it to bite it? I would think a bad guy high on crack is going to act a little more violently. I highly doubt he would make himself such an easy target. Show us your dogs working through some real pressure and threats. Or maybe they can't?

In that deployment video, why does the camera man not film the dog "subduing the threat"? Again, it seems like you are trying to hide things.

I have to agree with Peter, find a good training club where you can learn from experienced people. It is obvious there was not a good foundation put on any of these dogs. It is sad to see people ruining their dogs with bad training when there is quality training to be had. If you do not believe the few of us here who work their dogs, post your pictures and videos on the board in my signature or one of these boards. They are chalk full of trainers..from novices to very experienced, unlike this board that is 99% pet owners.

http://members.boardhost.com/bandog/

http://members.boardhost.com/Chicagoland/
 

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post work

PS the fact you do not understand what Peter means by setting the bite on the post shows me how inexperienced not only you are, but also your trainer. A post is one of the most important training tools a club can have. They are imperative.
 

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Well i for one think they were great how long have you been into this kinda traning of your dog's? i think i read somwhere before you said you just got into it so good 4 you keep up the good work and never mind the B.S comments keep up the hard work !
 

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ALPHAMALE said:
Well i for one think they were great how long have you been into this kinda traning of your dog's? i think i read somwhere before you said you just got into it so good 4 you keep up the good work and never mind the B.S comments keep up the hard work !
Well, Steve, since you think the videos look great, would you be kind enough to share with us the aspects of the videos that you find to be so good? Please be specific. After all, I only watched the videos one time each and could have missed some things that should have impressed me.. Also, by pointing out the finer things from those videos, maybe you could benefit the people here who are trying to train a personal protection dog.

Thank you.
 

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that decoy is a proffesional? i have to say i find that kinda scary. i also would recommend finding a good club to work with. these dogs show no real commitment and as lisa says, in that bark and hold it is VERY obvious that dog does not want to be there. are these dogs just starting? i know the bully is but i thought the others were suppose to be "advanced" . either way, i see alot wrong in these videos that needs to be addressed

and steve, honestly if you were watching someone with bad weightpull form and practices would you just let them continue with bad practice or would you point out that they may be doing damage to their dog and try and help them?
 

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Lisa said:
ALPHAMALE said:
Well i for one think they were great how long have you been into this kinda traning of your dog's? i think i read somwhere before you said you just got into it so good 4 you keep up the good work and never mind the B.S comments keep up the hard work !
Well, Steve, since you think the videos look great, would you be kind enough to share with us the aspects of the videos that you find to be so good? Please be specific. After all, I only watched the videos one time each and could have missed some things that should have impressed me.. Also, by pointing out the finer things from those videos, maybe you could benefit the people here who are trying to train a personal protection dog.

Thank you.
Iam basing my statement on the fact that i dont know how long they've been doing this kinda tranning with there dog if it's been 4 years no iam not impressed but if it's been a new thing ..sure why wouldent i be ....i think it's great that there doning anytype of work with a bully breed sure if you dont know what your doing and have no prof...working with ya it could be dangerous to try protection work but they said thay had help so iam good with that ! I dont know a lot about sch or protection tranning you know this lisa why you calling me out like that ! whats you problem ? iam not claming to know anything about it i said i liked the vid's what's wrong with that !

why dont you post some VID'S OF YOUR first comple of tranning day's bet there not up to snuff ither why you got to jump all over people that post things like this at least there doing somthing with there dog's and if the tranner has worked and trannined police and army dog's iam sure he knows whats what ... did you even ask if this was a new thing for them and the dog or did you guys just jump all over them and pick apart the vid's to make your self feel better
 

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ALPHAMALE said:
Lisa said:
ALPHAMALE said:
Well i for one think they were great how long have you been into this kinda traning of your dog's? i think i read somwhere before you said you just got into it so good 4 you keep up the good work and never mind the B.S comments keep up the hard work !
Well, Steve, since you think the videos look great, would you be kind enough to share with us the aspects of the videos that you find to be so good? Please be specific. After all, I only watched the videos one time each and could have missed some things that should have impressed me.. Also, by pointing out the finer things from those videos, maybe you could benefit the people here who are trying to train a personal protection dog.

Thank you.
Iam basing my statement on the fact that i dont know how long they've been doing this kinda tranning with there dog if it's been 4 years no iam not impressed but if it's been a new thing ..sure why wouldent i be ....i think it's great that there doning anytype of work with a bully breed sure if you dont know what your doing and have no prof...working with ya it could be dangerous to try protection work but they said thay had help so iam good with that ! I dont know a lot about sch or protection tranning you know this lisa why you calling me out like that ! whats you problem ? iam not claming to know anything about it i said i liked the vid's what's wrong with that !

why dont you post some VID'S OF YOUR first comple of tranning day's bet there not up to snuff ither why you got to jump all over people that post things like this at least there doing somthing with there dog's and if the tranner has worked and trannined police and army dog's iam sure he knows whats what ... did you even ask if this was a new thing for them and the dog or did you guys just jump all over them and pick apart the vid's to make your self feel better
not sure if you are talking to me or just lisa, but i did post video of izzy's first bark and hold . AND if i do say so i think it looked better that this work. jmo tho, i am open to comment AND critisism
 

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attitude said:
and steve, honestly if you were watching someone with bad weightpull form and practices would you just let them continue with bad practice or would you point out that they may be doing damage to their dog and try and help them?
sure try to help them but using a littel class wile doing it ! you think when i come a crossed afirst timer rite after they make there first pull i walk up to them and say you know what your dog and you have no idea what your doing what kinda pull was that .. this is not for you you called that a PULL come on get out of here ....no id say nice work keep at it work with your dog more iam sure you guy's will get it nice try keep it up youll been fine!
 

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attitude said:
not sure if you are talking to me or just lisa, but i did post video of izzy's first bark and hold . AND if i do say so i think it looked better that this work. jmo tho, i am open to comment AND critisism
i remember seeing that yes it was a good show and vid you posted but not all dogs are the same some take longer to get it at least there trying .. maby after a wile eveyone will come to the concution the dog isent cut out foor protection work OR maby in a year or so this will inprove who know's it's just one vid! but yes your vid rocked for the first time out ! but well lizzy is out of malo so thats answers that 8)

ok i admit i dident read your guy's full post's sorry my bad ! it wasent as bad as i thought it was the bashing senario ! sorry :oops:
 

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ALPHAMALE said:
attitude said:
and steve, honestly if you were watching someone with bad weightpull form and practices would you just let them continue with bad practice or would you point out that they may be doing damage to their dog and try and help them?
sure try to help them but using a littel class wile doing it ! you think when i come a crossed afirst timer irite after they make there first pull i walk up to them and say you know what your dog and you have no idea what your doing what kinda pull was that .. this is not for you you called that a PULL come on get out of here ....no id say nice work keep at it word with your dog mpore iam sure you guy's will get it nice try keep it up youll been fine!
i'm sorry, but from reading the posts ultimate k9 has not ever given the impression she is a "first timer" . the only green dog is her bully. pretty sure she has said her other dogs are "advanced" . ultimate k9, please correct me if i am wrong
 

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ok i admit i dident read your guy's full post's sorry my bad ! it wasent as bad as i thought it was the bashing senario ! sorry
 

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I think the biggest problem is the dogs are being advanced before any foundation is done. Those videos were weak, the helper basically fed the dog the sleeve in the car jacking, and the helper was not threatening in anyway. He just stood there, like a tree, then fed the dog the sleeve.

About the video of your bully, the young one just started. When the dog was showing interest in the sleeve the helper did nothing, when he gave him the bite, he didn't give him the sleeve, why not? Shouldn't the sleeve be given to the dog as a reward? Also the dog doesn't have a good bite, but the helper continues to "play" with the dog, is this why the sleeve wasn't given as a reward?

I am a beginner too, and don't know a whole lot, so bear with me, just asking questions.
 

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Steve, go back and read Ultimate's post in the Photo section

http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/discuss/viewtopic.php?t=13013&start=0

She says herself that 2 of her 3 dogs are advanced. They work off lead and have been training for a while. In fact, one is 10yrs old.

Sorry, but those dogs look bad even for novices, let alone dogs that are supposedly in the advanced stages of training. If I had dogs that looked that bad even their first few times out, I would wash them out.

Not only that, even if she was a new handler to personal protection, no one has mentioned anything about that. How do you explain the shoddy helper work? So, even if Ultimate is a rookie does that justify bad helper techniques? How does being a rookie handler justify the fact her dogs look weak in their work?

Steve, you said the vidoes look good but again you can not answer and explain why. It seems that whenever you are questioned, you reply with some vague answer that anyone could give. Tell us what you like about the videos!! Myself, Tia, Peter, and cathy, said what we DON'T like please tell us what you do like.

Being a novice handler is no excuse for poor helper work and dogs who are weak and lack character. Are you not watching the same videos as we are? Can you not see that Eros can't wait to get the hell out of there? That is with no pressure!

Would it be better if we all lied and told her the work looked great and she just continued on with this bad training? How responsible would that be? Why not be truthful so she can go and find someone to train with that can actually benefit her and her dogs (if they even have what it takes which is very questionable from these videos). Do you think it is ethical for someone to continue working with someones dogs and taking their money even if it is obvious the dogs lack the drive and courage for the work?

Steve, I love to see people working with their dogs. It is always admirable to see people trying. BUT, when I see bad work like this, and people come on and comment about how great it is, how does that look to the novices? They look at these videos and actually think this is quality work. How can that be benefical to anyone? Those videos and pics she posted are not good at all and I would surely not be posting them if they were my dogs. The fact Ultimate can not recognize herself how bad her dogs look, and how bad the training is would be a big red flag that she isn't experienced at what she is doing. She doesn't even know what post work is! The most basic aspect of protection training and the first thing a bite trained dog should be doing is working on a post. Yet, she doesn't even know what it means. What does that tell you about the TRAINER she is working with??

GEEZ, people the last thing we should be doing is encouraging people to continue with bad training! There is good training out there, why settle for anything less?
 

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Re: Carla.

ultimatek9 said:
The guy that we are using (which is the decoy in the videos) has been training dogs for over 25yrs. He has trained countless dogs for police departments, personal protection, and work in schutzhund, psa, and ring. I have talked to plenty of people, including police officers, that are very satisfied with his work. He is also a dual certified guide dog instructor. I am not exactly sure what is being done wrong. I have even sent the videos to my friend that helps train military dogs and he said that they looked great. So I don't know. Ugh!
HEY lisa maby you should PM her and ask for the tranners number and you can call him and let him how he sucks if you think he's so bad ...it's only one a coulpe of vids but you feel ok with publicly bashing a person you know nothing about :roll: wow ok fill your boot's and as far as me and protection work i wouldent know a sleeve it it hit me in the face not my feild sorry ... and what i meant by goodi ..ME ... steve .. (alpha male.)..I.. thought it look good ..cool neat fun what ever you want to call it .... but like i said and will say again for the cheep seat's I DONT KNOW SHIT ABOUT PROTECTION TRANING ! ok carrie on
 
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