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alpha.

I guess I get a bit worried because I don't see work like this "cool neat or fun", as you put it. I see too many people trying to make their dogs into biters. I think it is a BAD BAD BAD idea.

That last dog, needs prey work.

And Carla, post work is the absolute foundation for proper grips. YOU set your grips on the post. All my dogs are on the post. NONE bite shallow and I do not allow it. To me, good post work is like art. Schutzhund generally is very good at this. Hell, I have a post in my basement and all my dogs always go back to the large tugs. When the dogs are stressed, it goes to its foundation. If you have none, the dogs crumble.

Channeling, setting the grips, post work, counter, on and on and on............all these are foundation work. There is alot to be learned from a proper club, Carla. You will not be sorry. Try it.
 

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I am new to bitework, but the decoy seemed . . . lackluster. He didn't work the dogs at all. Even a dog who is just learning needs to be worked on a bite, though perhaps not be tested, the decoy still needs to be moving around, making that bite worth it, and not feeding the bite to the dog. As Chris Fraize always says when we're working dogs in prey drive one way or another "There are no suicide rabbits."

Now I have a video from my first weekend with Mike. It's BAD. I'll admit. Well actually, I'm bad in it. I'm an inexperienced handler. And I sit there and watch it and I keep yelling at myself "STOP MOVING WITH THAT DOG AND POST THE EF UP!!" but it was a learning experience for both myself and my dog, with an experienced decoy (Chris) who was working the dog and teaching the dog, and who showed the video to me afterwards and before he could point out what I did wrong I knew. If I were to post this video I would be sure to let people know that I am fully aware of my mistakes, that both the dog and myself are new to this, and it was a learning experience.

We all are beginners, we all make mistakes. But the previous thread where you claimed that your dogs were advanced (when questioned why they were all offleash and together while doing bitework), and then you go and show this? It doesn't support "advanced". If you said "We're just starting this, never did this before, new exercise, green dog, blah blah blah" it would make sense. But that's not the case.

I know you said you're working with a club. If this decoy is the main club decoy, or club trainer, please go find someone else to work with. I'm not trying to say it to be mean, but I know that at least in my area there are 10 bad bitework trainers to every 1 good one. A different trainer may give you a different view on what you've done with your dogs so far and how you can improve.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
I have been training dogs for about the past 10yrs for obedience, agility, tracking, and the such. I have been trying to learn the art of protection training for about the past 6mths on and off (around my work schedule).

PS the fact you do not understand what Peter means by setting the bite on the post shows me how inexperienced not only you are
She doesn't even know what post work is!
I realize I don't know what it means, that is why in my previous post I asked what that meant. But the fact that you would rather further critisize me for not knowing, then actually answering the question, means I still don't know what it means. But you are obviously very proud of yourself because you do.

The videos are grainy and you can not tell at all how the dogs grips are. Even judging the targetting is a bit difficult due to the quality of the video . Was this done on purpose?
I'm pretty sure that I already covered this twice, but let me help you out with it anyway. Instead of critsizing you for not reading. See how it works. Question = Answer
My very first post.
The quality isn't very good, and my husband needs some training as a camera man. But oh well, here they are.
My second post.
My husband was playing with the other video camera and forgot to move this one, I guess. The other camera has some better quality video, but we can't get it to download to our computer.
Next time you video a "car jacking" scenario, have the camera man record it from the passenger side of the vehicle.
Will do.

In that deployment video, why does the camera man not film the dog "subduing the threat"? Again, it seems like you are trying to hide things.
Absolutely, I wanted to give you something else to b-witch about.
I know I already commented about that, oh yes there it was.
The deploying was actually: me "pumping gas" and an attacker came up and grabbed me. Eros then deployed from the vehicle and subdued the threat. My husband was playing with the other video camera and forgot to move this one, I guess. The other camera has some better quality video, but we can't get it to download to our computer.
In the video of Eros's hold and bark, why is he guarding the helper from so far away? He looks like he wants to leave and at one point looked like he started to. Definitely some conflict there, either with you, or with the helper, or maybe even both.
He is far away from the helper at all, but since Eros likes to jumps up the front of the helper and click his teeth in their face. We had to teach him to stay back a little, since they are not supposed to touch the helper during the hold and bark. Also, I have watched the video about 20 times (besides the fact that I was there), and I can't find a spot where he even looked back at me. Other than: the first time he turned around and went off screen, was when I called him off; the second time was when I gave him a leash and verbal correction for mouthing the sleeve.
Maybe you are seeing something that I can't.

i'm sorry, but from reading the posts ultimate k9 has not ever given the impression she is a "first timer" . the only green dog is her bully. pretty sure she has said her other dogs are "advanced" . ultimate k9, please correct me if i am wrong
They are advanced in obedience yes. I never said they were in protection. If they were to that point, I would be looking into competing them.

About the video of your bully, the young one just started. When the dog was showing interest in the sleeve the helper did nothing, when he gave him the bite, he didn't give him the sleeve, why not? Shouldn't the sleeve be given to the dog as a reward? Also the dog doesn't have a good bite, but the helper continues to "play" with the dog, is this why the sleeve wasn't given as a reward?
Because, were trying to get him to alert (by barking) as soon as he barked he got a bite. The first bite was shallow, so we held pressure on him until he lost his grip. Then we started over again. He barks, he got a bite, he bite full mouth, he got the sleeve. When Jim slipped the sleeve back on and was pressing into Jaeger, he was encouraging him to regrip. Once he did, he got the sleeve again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Peter C.

PeterC said:
And Carla, post work is the absolute foundation for proper grips. YOU set your grips on the post. All my dogs are on the post. NONE bite shallow and I do not allow it. To me, good post work is like art. Schutzhund generally is very good at this. Hell, I have a post in my basement and all my dogs always go back to the large tugs. When the dogs are stressed, it goes to its foundation. If you have none, the dogs crumble.

Channeling, setting the grips, post work, counter, on and on and on............all these are foundation work. There is alot to be learned from a proper club, Carla. You will not be sorry. Try it.

Okay, I am still not sure. Is post work: hooking the dog to a stationary object, making them come out for the bite, and keeping tension to build their grip?

If not. Please explain it to me.
 

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Carla, if your dogs are novices in this type of work then why are you doing call offs before the dog is even biting full? From what I can see the more we correspond, these dogs are being rushed, too many steps skipped in the training. There is absolutely no way your dogs should be doing call off at this stage of the game. Your dogs should be working on bite development not call offs! If you want to practice call offs, do it from a dead sleeve for now, not the decoy! Dogs should NEVER be called off from the man until they are working with confidence and biting full and hard. Good way to ruin your dog and squash any confidence it may have.

BTW you are correct about the post work. The object being a post in the ground. Something that has no give at all and allows the dog to be worked away from the handler if need be.
 

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Re: alpha.

PeterC said:
I guess I get a bit worried because I don't see work like this "cool neat or fun", as you put it.
cool.....that people like to work there dog's not enuff people doing it now a day's IMHO

neat ....cause i dont see to manny vid's of protection work...and i like to watch them

fun .....cause why else would you do it then fun for both the handeler and dog other than selling protction tranned dogs for sucerity or for the sport of it ..witch BTW i think should be fun first and formost at this stange of the game shouldent it be fun Y/N ! sorry enjoyment what ever ! or have you forgoten what its like to have FUN WITH A DOG !

btw i think K9 answered all your guys questios 2 a T :wink: good for her !
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·

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looks good to me keep up the hard work and btw have fun isent that what you got into working your dog for to begin with cheers Alpha male
 

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I also wanted to add on post work:
"posting up" can also mean anchoring yourself and your dog in one position. Your dog may be at the end of the leash acting like a fool, but no matter how he moves you don't move a muscle. That was the very first thing I ever learned.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Oh! One thing I forgot to mention. About the "eros carjacking" with decoy wearing the sleeve. The decoy wasn't supposed to be threatening. He was talking calmly and sweet to Eros, and trying to coax him into letting him near the truck. Any dog will alert on someone that is yelling and flailing their arms around. This is to make sure he alerted because I told him to, not because he felt threatened.

Also, I was told when doing a carjacking in competition, the dog wasn't allowed to come out for a bite. They had to wait until the decoys arm entered the threshold of the car. This would make sense in real life to. I don't think you would want your dog grabbing someone outside of your vehicle. I guess this is why the decoy stuck his arm in the car (not to feed Eros a bite). I am very confident that Eros would have leaped out of the car for a bite, had I not been holding his harness.
 

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Carla,

Lisa, Sis Morphene and Peter C, are telling you the truth. Don't take it personally or hold grudges. I agree with their point of view which is quite extensive and broader than mosts. I have only done PP, FCI Obedience and French Ring. And I've won national championships in CD/CDX Obedience and French Ring. And what I saw in the vids isn't what should be seen for the age and capasity of that dog. Look at Peter C's vids on the Carjacking and Hold & Bark and you'll see the major difference. Hope this helps.
 
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