Yeah I like Meathead a lot though, his build is amazing, and he is conformationally awesome, very straight, great angulation, he's all that.

wrknrott,

I agree wholeheartedly with ALL of your observations on drives as well as the other perspectives. I saw the same thing and it's obvious that if anyone else can't see it, then they lack some knowledge and/or experience in working dogs.

I just wanted to add, for the sake of those true "student minded" people out there who really want to learn. The dog never re-grips on any of the bites taken. He grabs the sleeve with his front teeth only. This of course is because of reasons; lack of drives and poor agitation. But the dog fails miserably when given the chance to take a proper grip, he doesn't. Big lack of character there. Not to mention an extremely low intensity by this Meathead.

The observation everyone here should do is look at the poor physical balance of this dog. He's SO disproportionate that he can NOT be considered a good protection dog. Because even if he WAS to get in good shape, I doubt if he could get to a bad guy, especially if they're one of those mischeivous, agile teenagers. His leg-height and height-length proportion totally eliminates him as a PP dog.

But he is massive, muscular and has a huge head. If you like those kinds of looks ..... Great! If your main interest is practical working dogs, then this counts for nothing.

It reminds me of when my personal dog died of cancer. Not long after that my house was "visited" by unwelcomed guests. I had to take one of my dogs who was working as an area guard to protect my house. At the heaviest time in his life he might have weighed in at a whopping 42 lbs. Yet when the "unwelcomed guests" came for a second round, my 42 pound APBT was waiting. They hit him with everything but the kitchen sink. The next day he had a sore right front leg but bot his trophies. A couple of chunks of stained blue jeans and T's.

In my book, I'd rather have a 40 pound REAL manstopper than a 100+pound imitation of a manstopper. Although I do realize that not everyone needs or can have a real practical working dog.

That was an EXCELLENT post. I'm sure there will be a rebuttal :roll:

 

At least I can see some opinions flying. The board has been a bit settle lately. :lol:

 

Yeah I like Meathead a lot though, his build is amazing, and he is conformationally awesome, very straight, great angulation, he's all that.

wrknrott,

I agree wholeheartedly with ALL of your observations on drives as well as the other perspectives. I saw the same thing and it's obvious that if anyone else can't see it, then they lack some knowledge and/or experience in working dogs.

I just wanted to add, for the sake of those true "student minded" people out there who really want to learn. The dog never re-grips on any of the bites taken. He grabs the sleeve with his front teeth only. This of course is because of reasons; lack of drives and poor agitation. But the dog fails miserably when given the chance to take a proper grip, he doesn't. Big lack of character there. Not to mention an extremely low intensity by this Meathead.

The observation everyone here should do is look at the poor physical balance of this dog. He's SO disproportionate that he can NOT be considered a good protection dog. Because even if he WAS to get in good shape, I doubt if he could get to a bad guy, especially if they're one of those mischeivous, agile teenagers. His leg-height and height-length proportion totally eliminates him as a PP dog.

But he is massive, muscular and has a huge head. If you like those kinds of looks ..... Great! If your main interest is practical working dogs, then this counts for nothing.

It reminds me of when my personal dog died of cancer. Not long after that my house was "visited" by unwelcomed guests. I had to take one of my dogs who was working as an area guard to protect my house. At the heaviest time in his life he might have weighed in at a whopping 42 lbs. Yet when the "unwelcomed guests" came for a second round, my 42 pound APBT was waiting. They hit him with everything but the kitchen sink. The next day he had a sore right front leg but bot his trophies. A couple of chunks of stained blue jeans and T's.

In my book, I'd rather have a 40 pound REAL manstopper than a 100+pound imitation of a manstopper. Although I do realize that not everyone needs or can have a real practical working dog.

Nelson... these are excellent points!!!!

8)

 

That was an EXCELLENT post. I'm sure there will be a rebuttal :roll:

nope, no rebutal to comments that I don't know much about because I don't train, and this is after about 10 shots of tequila on my bday night too :lol: like I'm saying, I'm open to all comments, especially from the standard/hybrid folks

ok maybe one, just for meathead lol. i'm sure he's never really hit a sleeve before since he was just aquired by jose. he's likely just playing a game, like most dogs would on a sleeve for their first time, especially without any real agitation or without a real attack at the decoy. This much at least I know through experience.

 

The dog looks like he is having problems being so stocky and heavy.

Problems with what? Just curious. He's tied on his chain for the majority of this vid. Just wondering what you mean...not trying to argue

Well, when I have watched other clips with the dog's they seem to have the energy and drive they want to bite, altho they are big. This guy seems like it's all an effort to him, lack of drive maybe. and you can try argue with me but I know fk all about working dogs lol but this guy does'nt seem to have the drive or energy like what I have seen in say Peterc dogs or lisa. I know this was his first time, but I reckon my staffs would have showed better drive on their first bite

I see him as the kinda dog that if he wasn't on a chain, he would woddle fast over to the sleeve and ...'i suppose i have to jump up and bite your sleeve now, ho hum' sort of dog

Hope that explains what i meant. remember I'm just a pet owner and the most I do is OB

JMO

 

he's likely just playing a game, like most dogs would on a sleeve for their first time, especially without any real agitation or without a real attack at the decoy. This much at least I know through experience.

Hmmmm..... All that experience is shining through in that statement. :lol:

8)

 

he's likely just playing a game, like most dogs would on a sleeve for their first time, especially without any real agitation or without a real attack at the decoy. This much at least I know through experience.

Hmmmm..... All that experience is shining through in that statement. :lol:

8)

hehe, I have all the experience that watching 1 dog on a sleeve in person for the first time can bring, that's a lot! :lol: (ps: that means I'm as raw as they come, fresh outta the basket)

 

redbull wrote:
he's likely just playing a game, like most dogs would on a sleeve for their first time, especially without any real agitation or without a real attack at the decoy. This much at least I know through experience.

Again this is for the open minded less experienced people reading this board. There is a saying that goes; "there's not a worse blind than that who doesn't want to see." There's nothing worse than being fanatical. With a fanatic you can not reason but for those seeking knowledge let me give you some examples and explanations on this theme.

The parents of my 42 lbs Pit were game bred dogs. They've never seen a sleeve in their life. The sire of the litter didn't have much teeth at all. He had some molars but they were all worn out. I asked if I could test the parents and the breeder agreeded. As most people know APBTs are usually kept on a chain out in their yard and they really condone people aggressive dogs.

I did a couple of moves and once the dog got "hot" I gave him the sleeve. Now remember, this dog is biting with his gums! I almost had to use a breaking stick to get the dog off the sleeve. And this was his first time he ever even SAW one! I couldn't test the female cause she was in a kennel run with her pups. But I insisted that I wanted to go up to the kennel and see her reaction without him (the owner) near me. I went to the kennel, she looked very intensly at me and as soon as she left the litter box, I pounded at the gate and she lunged at me.

I had to get an earfull from the breeder but that demonstration from his dogs got him an instant customer. A good dog is a good dog PERIOD! Making excuses for a weak dog is irrational and only fools yourself. Good training will make a good dog, great. Bad or lack of training UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES will change the dogs' genes. All dogs are born with their genetic make-up. They either have it or they don't. It's that simple. Happy training!

 

Noone's making excuses

I will agree with you that an owner/handler is not properly able to show themselves as a threat and thus not able to properly aggitate their own dogs though, unless they remain completely neutral in their handling of the dogs, in which case you more than likely need 2 handlers in the household, and even still I wouldn't attempt this unless the handler really knew what they were doing and had a ton ofg experience training dogs from their own yard.

Do you think your apbt friend would have been able to illicit the same response from his own dog(s)?

 

I like the way the dog looks, but he seems clumsy. My dog Logan is clumsy like that, although at times he amazes me with how agile he can be. Sometimes I think they are lazy, and don't put effort into everything...lol.

But, in all honesty, who in their right mind would even challenge a dog that looked that? Most thieves are cowards, and would rather not take on a dog unless that had to.

It goes back to what I said in a protection thread. If someone is brave enough to challenge my dog, then I will likely need to shoot them anyway.

 

Redbull,

I have no intention of arguing with you, especially now that I see you completely twisted the topic away from the main point of objectively evaluating a video of a poor working specimen of AB. You stated this Jose guy is a great trainer, PSA judge, bla, bla bla .... who only breeds drivey dogs and that's all he has, etc, etc. They ask you to back up your claims by posting Jose's accomplishments in PSA, etc. besides other things. Yet anything that ever came out in your response posts was attitude. You couldn't back up any claims you mentioned with proof of facts. You practically begged for people to just limit their responses to the dog and video of Meathead.

I will NOT answer your post. First of all because you have no credibility. Second of all you clearly show you have no intention of learning. Last but not least, if/when you back up with facts or proof the questions asked to you about Jose's accomplishments, his breeding lines' accomplishments, etc then you'll have at least some credibility.

I stand behind all of my posts. A good dog is a good dog UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES period! That video of Meathead shows plenty. Unfortunately for him, it shows just what a poor specimen of an AB he is. If you get it ...... good. If you don't ..... read the many good posts from people who answered to you that have shown they know way more than you. If you want to learn, great. If you don't .... then that's your decision. You're free to stay in your fanatical stage. I'll keep helping the ones who aren't.

And just in case you feel I don't have enough weight in what I say, here's my resume:

* Took Professional Dog Trainer Course 1984.
* Contributing Editor Dog Sport Magazine, section "Its The Pits", 1986-1996.
* Breeder/handler/trainer APBT "Drago".
* Drago's CD trials: His first trial he got a 4th place, then took 4 straight 1st place blue ribbons.
* FCI National CD Obedience Champion 1989 with handler bred, raised and trained APBT Mean Marthas' Dragon (Drago).
* Drago's CDX Trials: Four straight 1st place in all of his trials.
* FCI National CDX Obedience Champion 1990 with Drago (becoming the first CDX Titled APBT in the history of PR.
* Radio Talk Host; "Man's Best Friend"
*Founder, president and training director Caribbean Ring Sport Club 1987-2000.
*Certified NARA Level 1 Decoy 1997.
* Trained 2 French Ring Decoys to certification.
* Breeder/Owner?Handler/Trainer of Puma de la Caribbean: first APBT to do Dog in White in an official French Ring trial.
* Owner/handler/trainer of Lasko de la Virginie (Malinois).
* Lasko's French Ring Trials:
* 1st place French Ring Brevet - Virginia1997.
* 1st place French Ring 1 - Connetticut 1998.
* 1st place French Ring 1 - New Jersey 1998.
* 1st place French Ring 2 - New Jersey 1999.
* 1st place French Ring 2 - Florida 1999.
* 1st place French Ring 3 - Washington State.
* 1st place French Ring 3 - Calgary, Canada.
* CRA 2000 French Ring III Grand Champion.
* Trained various other dogs to French Ring titles.
* Gave many demos and presentations to Rotary Clubs, Lions Club, Knights of Columbus, and private entities.
* Gave various French Ring seminars in the US and abroad.
* Judge: Frostbite Personal Protection Tournament.
* Judge: Working Pit Bull Terrier Club of America 2006 National Championships (Obedience & Protection)
* Middle Grade School Teacher as a profession.

 

I'm not arguing, I asked you an honest question.

Don't quite know why you think I'm arguing. I am not challenging you whatsoever. I think the working ppl here need to be less touchy.

I asked you a question about your apbt friend, and about acting as decoy for a dog that you own, which is not normally done (for a reason). How is that arguing?

Just looking for insight on that topic.

Do you think your apbt friend would have been able to illicit the same response from his own dog(s)?

why and/or why not?

Again, I will spell it out in bold for you, I am not arguing
Simply asking for clarification on a situation such as that, which is the same as what you see in the vid, an owner decoying for his own dog. If you don't want to answer such an easy question, then fine - but I don't see why not. I'm not challenging you at all, I am listening. But apparently I am not experienced enough for you to answer this question. And if you think I am far too inexperienced to hold a conversation with, then why did you post to me in this thread and then expect not to hold a conversation.


EDIT: I think we all know that there are 2 - 3 types of AB's out there. The performance/standard type, hybrid, and the bully type. I am not claiming that the bully type is superior for working in anyway, so I don't know why you're on the offensive about that. Yes, if I wanted a working machine I would go pure standard, and likely talk to Luciano about a dog. But that's not what my situation is, and again, I am not claiming that the bullies are better for working than the standards, that would be rediculous of me to say.

pps: I don't think I'm being fanatical. I'm just making the best out of the situation that I have, which is being able to make first pick out of any future litter of his, in exchange for re-designing his website. If i had videos of his other dogs I would post them up too and ask opinions. In fact I probably will spring the 80bux to fly to his place so I can shoot video of his dogs and take lots of photos. Probably within the next month or two.

 

Redbull,

I have no intention of arguing with you, especially now that I see you completely twisted the topic away from the main point of objectively evaluating a video of a poor working specimen of AB. You stated this Jose guy is a great trainer, PSA judge, bla, bla bla .... who only breeds drivey dogs and that's all he has, etc, etc. They ask you to back up your claims by posting Jose's accomplishments in PSA, etc. besides other things. Yet anything that ever came out in your response posts was attitude. You couldn't back up any claims you mentioned with proof of facts. You practically begged for people to just limit their responses to the dog and video of Meathead.

I will NOT answer your post. First of all because you have no credibility. Second of all you clearly show you have no intention of learning. Last but not least, if/when you back up with facts or proof the questions asked to you about Jose's accomplishments, his breeding lines' accomplishments, etc then you'll have at least some credibility.

I stand behind all of my posts. A good dog is a good dog UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES period! That video of Meathead shows plenty. Unfortunately for him, it shows just what a poor specimen of an AB he is. If you get it ...... good. If you don't ..... read the many good posts from people who answered to you that have shown they know way more than you. If you want to learn, great. If you don't .... then that's your decision. You're free to stay in your fanatical stage. I'll keep helping the ones who aren't.

And just in case you feel I don't have enough weight in what I say, here's my resume:

* Took Professional Dog Trainer Course 1984.
* Contributing Editor Dog Sport Magazine, section "Its The Pits", 1986-1996.
* Breeder/handler/trainer APBT "Drago".
* Drago's CD trials: His first trial he got a 4th place, then took 4 straight 1st place blue ribbons.
* FCI National CD Obedience Champion 1989 with handler bred, raised and trained APBT Mean Marthas' Dragon (Drago).
* Drago's CDX Trials: Four straight 1st place in all of his trials.
* FCI National CDX Obedience Champion 1990 with Drago (becoming the first CDX Titled APBT in the history of PR.
* Radio Talk Host; "Man's Best Friend"
*Founder, president and training director Caribbean Ring Sport Club 1987-2000.
*Certified NARA Level 1 Decoy 1997.
* Trained 2 French Ring Decoys to certification.
* Breeder/Owner?Handler/Trainer of Puma de la Caribbean: first APBT to do Dog in White in an official French Ring trial.
* Owner/handler/trainer of Lasko de la Virginie (Malinois).
* Lasko's French Ring Trials:
* 1st place French Ring Brevet - Virginia1997.
* 1st place French Ring 1 - Connetticut 1998.
* 1st place French Ring 1 - New Jersey 1998.
* 1st place French Ring 2 - New Jersey 1999.
* 1st place French Ring 2 - Florida 1999.
* 1st place French Ring 3 - Washington State.
* 1st place French Ring 3 - Calgary, Canada.
* CRA 2000 French Ring III Grand Champion.
* Trained various other dogs to French Ring titles.
* Gave many demos and presentations to Rotary Clubs, Lions Club, Knights of Columbus, and private entities.
* Gave various French Ring seminars in the US and abroad.
* Judge: Frostbite Personal Protection Tournament.
* Judge: Working Pit Bull Terrier Club of America 2006 National Championships (Obedience & Protection)
* Middle Grade School Teacher as a profession.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
now there is a test . good post

 

Nelson....

Nice accomplishments! =D> =D> =D>

 

Redbull,
You stated this Jose guy is a great trainer, PSA judge, bla, bla bla .... who only breeds drivey dogs and that's all he has, etc, etc. They ask you to back up your claims by posting Jose's accomplishments in PSA, etc. besides other things. Yet anything that ever came out in your response posts was attitude. You couldn't back up any claims you mentioned with proof of facts. You practically begged for people to just limit their responses to the dog and video of Meathead.

Jose used to train in PSA, he no longer does. Jose is a judge, currently, but in the show circuit. He is an ABA judge, and an international one at that. He is hired by many police forces to do evaluations of their working stock as well, and by this I am hoping to get help to evaluate and choose a nice potential from one of his future litters, if one will exist, because yes - I am owed a dog from him for work I am doing for him, and thought I would use the agreement he and I have to be able to sift through future litters to find a potential, even though it's not the most practical thing. This is what I hope ppl understand here.

He used to hold PSA trials in the past and work hybrids exstensively. He used to train for ages under Luciano Oliva, and he was well known for working ABs on the left coast for a very long time. I do not know what his accomplishments were with that. I think he may have titled some hybrids.

Yes I stated these things in this thread, because I was being challenged about him. I did not in anyway state that he is currently working in PSA, or that he has a working program. These were all assumptions made by posters in this thread. Yes he breeds for the show ring, but more often than not he does breed for drive, moreso than other breeders of bully AB's. Meathead may not be a very drivey AB, and it's true, I have nothing to base my claim on in my initial post, so I am wrong to be making a claim like that about him.. But the point of what I am getting at is that he is able to evaluate and know his stock and what he is working with and what he expects from his litters.

But in no way am I claiming that he has a PSA program! It is my goal to sift through his future litters to find one suitable, with his help and guidance as well. So far I only have video of Meathead, a new stud that he picked up recently. I am unable to show other stock until I get footage myself.

Anyhow, I hope you see why I was not prepared and am still not prepared to talk about anything more than this video and dog. All I expect from Jose is for his help to pick the right pup for me and help with imprinting. I guess I made the wrong choice to post the video in the working forum lol. And about giving attitude, well yeah I was when ppl were persistently commenting on things that were either obvious (bully abs not being as good as standards for working - the most obvious comment in the world) or that I have no right discussing and would be better answered by jose himself. It's not that I am not listening, I am I don't think most ppl reading this thread are quite listening to me though or what my situation + intentions are.

PS: yes, you are quite the accomplished individual, mad props :wink:

I am still open for discussing acting as decoy for one's own stock though. I'm not looking to argue. I actually know pro's who do it, but I also know that it's not always the most favorable thing to do. Would be an interesting side discussion.

 

Re: Nelson....

Nice accomplishments! =D> =D> =D>

yeah, I'd say he knows what he's talking about.

 

Re: Nelson....

Nice accomplishments! =D> =D> =D>

yeah, I'd say he knows what he's talking about.

I don't think anyone here is challenging his knowledge or his words.

He thinks I am not listening, but the fact is > I am owed a dog from Jose for work I am doing. That's the bottom line. If I can use the deal we have to help make the best pick possible, even though it's unpractical, then so be it. I am only trying to make a better situation out of a good one. I'd like to work a dog, but I am not so bent on becoming a trainer that I would limit my picks to only top working stock. If my future pup only becomes a show dog, then so be it as well, I won't complain or keep looking for other dogs.

 

i dnt like so bully ABs(if he can calld an AB) but for a website u get a very nice pet not a bad deal

 

i dnt like so bully ABs(if he can calld an AB) but for a website u get a very nice pet not a bad deal

Thanks, yeah I am hyped on being given such a great deal - having first pick out of any future breeding, in exchange for my own services, regardless of waiting lists.... that's pretty nice I must say. But he is also getting top-notch work from me, so I guess I deserve that deal.

I am anxious to go visit his yard and get to see his dogs first hand. I'm going to feel like a kid in candyland lol.

 

He is hired by many police forces to do evaluations of their working stock as well, and by this I am hoping to get help to evaluate and choose a nice potential from one of his future litters

Being that I have worked with some of the police departments between Sacramento and San Francisco, which all have GSD's and Mal's... what departments was it that sought out Jose's experience for their working stock? Not that I would neccessarily, but haven't heard of Jose through LEO sources.... although I know of Jose from other sources.

8)

 

I'll have to ask him. I remember him talking about the various quality of dogs that he's met...and how it all relayed back to the department's budget. Some dogs were put on the force with hardly any formal training or titling at all (and this was why they brought in ppl to evaluate them).

I think it must have been departments from out west as well. He used to live in the East bay area of San Fransisco, not sure where he's done evaluation work though - just remember the talks about the quality of dogs from force to force, depending on the size of the town and budget they have.

What does LEO stand for?

I'll be chatting to him this weekend and I'll find out who he's done work for in the past.

 

recap......

yep. just wanna hear what ppl think of my future pup's sire, regardless of his owner being a loong-time PSA trainer / handler / trialer / judge and knowing what he's doing :wink: He's been doing it (training, holding trials, and judging internationally) longer than most ppl on this board have owned these dogs or even known about them.

Hardly anyone on this board owns a dog like this (or knows very much about manstoppers) so I sort of know what to expect from ppl over here by now, but curious to hear opinions anyway hate away, or love away, I want all your opinions on the MEATHEAD

Yep this was Evans second post (fourth total on the topic he started) and at this point in the thread, Evan has already begun dishing out kudos to Jose's accomplishments and nobody asked in the posts before?

Must be to get a rise out of the true working folks here... then after stirring the sh!t Evan writes:

Yes I stated these things in this thread, because I was being challenged about him. I did not in anyway state that he is currently working in PSA, or that he has a working program. These were all assumptions made by posters in this thread. Yes he breeds for the show ring, but more often than not he does breed for drive, more so than other breeders of bully AB's. Meathead may not be a very drivey AB, and it's true, I have nothing to base my claim on in my initial post, so I am wrong to be making a claim like that about him.. But the point of what I am getting at is that he is able to evaluate and know his stock and what he is working with and what he expects from his litters.

No Evan... it was you that promoted Jose as being/having way more experience in all aspects of the dog world from the begining. Not to mention way more than any one of us that might comment on meathead. So this was your way of disqualifying our opinions as haters and the only opinions that you were looking for was from those who don't know any better! Like yourself....

8)

 

I'll have to ask him. I remember him talking about the various quality of dogs that he's met...and how it all relayed back to the department's budget. Some dogs were put on the force with hardly any formal training or titling at all (and this was why they brought in ppl to evaluate them). I think it must have been departments from out west as well. He used to live in the East bay area of San Fransisco, not sure where he's done evaluation work though - just remember the talks about the quality of dogs from force to force, depending on the size of the town and budget they have.

This is common knowledge in the working dog community and does not take a direct association to form this statement.

What does LEO stand for?

Law Enforcement Officer

8)

 

I try to stay off these threads since I don't know jack about working dogs. But as for pets -- I think as far as looks go, it's a personal preference, and redbull has always liked bullier type ABs. Carrie has/had some great looking bully ABs too, I'd be curious to see what she thinks. I don't know much about drive, but I think he's a great looking dog, and look forward to seeing his pups someday as well. To me, he looks like he's having fun with the sleeve, and you can't deny his INTEREST in it, even if you doubt his ABILITY.

Just wanna say good luck with your puppy! I'm sure he will be well loved.

 

Re: recap......

No Evan... it was you that promoted Jose as being/having way more experience in all aspects of the dog world from the begining. Not to mention way more than any one of us that might comment on meathead. So this was your way of disqualifying our opinions as haters and the only opinions that you were looking for was from those who don't know any better! Like yourself....

You are mistaken. I posted that he had more knowledge than anyone who had posted in the thread up till that point...and I posted that because I was a bit pissed that ppl were being so petty and full of assumptions about me and my intentions / reasons for getting a pup from him.

Anyhow, I am not trying to disqualify any opinions (except for opinions made through this video alone, without putting into perspective what is actually being done in the video - being chained and decoyed by owner - was only telling ppl to keep that in mind)...and yeah I was being a tad defensive. But I stated what my intentions are and why I am getting a dog from him, so I don't know why people would question that by stating the obvious about working AB programs, performance dogs, etc?

I've stated 8 times or so why I am getting a dog from him, but you still fail to see that I guess. Maybe you just like to bicker, insult and such?

I don't think I am being hard to understand or even uncivil or challenging atm.