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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Am I wrong? Why are some breeders inbreeding or close line breeding APBTs. I know inbreading can create vicious dogs. I would think most mainstream breeders are trying to improve the temperements toward other dogs, but yet alot of the lines are still really closly inbred. I think thats why the UKC allows AST/APBT outcrosses as APBTs. :?
 

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I really don't know much about breeding (okay...I know nothing!), but when I see a dog's pedigree with "Notorious Juan Gotty" listed in 4 or 5 different places, I want to scream!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Most breeds of dog and dog are line-bred, the more exreme linebreeding is called inbreeding. Inbreading should not be done, (except in rare cases). In the past, fighting pit bulls were inbred for many generations, creating vicious dogs.
OUT-CROSSING is breeding dogs from two different lines, Careful outcrosses create better temperements in future generations. In my opinion.
 

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I just spent almost an hour trying to find Lisa's post on breeding techniques to no avail. My bad. Inbreeding has nothing to do with "vicious" APBT's. IMHO, it's the tight breeding of the dogmen of the day that has everything to do with why the breed is human friendly. If it weren't for them, the breed would be abolished long ago.

Line breeding, back breeding and outcrossing are techniques that make up a lot of breeds existing today.

Inbreeding dogs are usually an uncomfortable topic to humans that don't know the true meaning of what it takes to improve/sustain the breed. Inbreeding dogs and inbreeding humans are two totally different things.

I'm no breeder but I did stay at the Holiday Inn last night. :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
E-Dogg said:
I just spent almost an hour trying to find Lisa's post on breeding techniques to no avail. My bad. Inbreeding has nothing to do with "vicious" APBT's. IMHO, it's the tight breeding of the dogmen of the day that has everything to do with why the breed is human friendly. If it weren't for them, the breed would be abolished long ago.

Line breeding, back breeding and outcrossing are techniques that make up a lot of breeds existing today.

Inbreeding dogs are usually an uncomfortable topic to humans that don't know the true meaning of what it takes to improve/sustain the breed. Inbreeding dogs and inbreeding humans are two totally different things.

I'm no breeder but I did stay at the Holiday Inn last night. :wink:
When I said "vicious", I meant toward other dogs. I have seen inbred dogs of different breeds become very aggresive towards other dogs. I dont think the dogmen inbred for 3 or 4 generations in a row to make a more people friendly dog. You cant say inbreading, or backbreading regularily is good for any breed.
 

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Line breeding and inbreeding is used to make the dog better. If you breed two dogs that has the same father or mother or both the good things ( that you want out with your breeding) multiply with two, but if the dogs has any problems, sickness, weak temprament the problem gets bigger and the bad things multiply with two. Thats why many inbreed in their line, becaus they think that theire line have so many good sides that it worth to make the breeding. The same breeding is used in horses that run for a sport. Hope you all did understand what I did right. Don´t say that I think this is the right way now, but this is why pepole inbreeding.
 

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Norseman, I think you should do your homework on breeding. Not that I think inbreeding be should be taken on by everyone (not even close) but to say it causes viscous (dog aggressive) dogs? Come on, are you serious? ANY breed of dog can be dog aggressive and it definitley doesn't need to be the product of inbreeding to be that way. Inbreeding brings out the best and worst traits in a dog or line of dogs. People who inbreed MUST be willing to cull and must keep a close eye on all the puppies in such a breeding. It is a breeding TOOL that is used to quickly bring the good and bad traits to the surface (hopefully mostly good). It reduces variability in what is produced. It is something that should only be done by people who know what they are doing and not some punk in the ghetto who wants to breed his dog back to his daughter to make some "tough" dogs. If some loser takes his fear biting, nerve bag pitbull and breeds it back to his daughter to get some more "tough" pitbulls, what do you think is going to happen? Probably a litter full of more fear biting nerve bags. See what I am saying? This can go both ways.

Here is an article I had bookmarked. Not sure if it is the one Edogg was referring to.

http://www.sloughi-international.com/linebreeding.htm
 

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well I don´t think that NorsemanBW is out of line here. Pepole have used this kind of breeding to get a better fighting dog. to increase the gameness. That´s why stormer (sbt) did mate with pitbulls, so they could get his fighting heart into the pibullbreed. So you can use this method to get a "viscios" dog. Today this is not often the reason to inbreed but there are pepole that do it that is into dogfight.
 

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Link said:
well I don´t think that NorsemanBW is out of line here. Pepole have used this kind of breeding to get a better fighting dog. to increase the gameness. That´s why stormer (sbt) did mate with pitbulls, so they could get his fighting heart into the pibullbreed. So you can use this method to get a "viscios" dog. Today this is not often the reason to inbreed but there are pepole that do it that is into dogfight.
Sure, I understand what you are saying. BUT a good APBT is supossed to be "game". But that has all changed now due to society and of course all the people out there breeding "petbulls" rather than pitbulls. Should we really fault an APBT for being dog aggressive?

But for him to say that inbreeding should not be used because it cause viscious dogs is silly. There are many reasons for inbreeding. The bottom line is that it is not for the novice backyard breeder who just wants to produce a littler to advertise in the newspaper to the general public to make money or the punk ass kid who wants to sell them to his buddies in the slum. That is the problem, not inbreeding itself.
 

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But if you look at the collie that have enormous problems now because of the inbreeding (after the Lassie movies). If the inbreeding is handle right this would not be the problem, but now pepole very often don´t now what they do. I guess that maybe 10 % that tries to linebreed now what they are doing really. The rotweiler have been very week mentaly because of bad breeding (here in sweden). This because it has been a very popular breed and has been throu bad breedings and inbreeding so they can produce so many dogs as possibly. That is very sad but the money talks. I think that its better to be on the save side and breed with healthy good dogs that is not so near in "family" to be on the save side whenm it´s posebly.
 

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Link said:
But if you look at the collie that have enormous problems now because of the inbreeding (after the Lassie movies). If the inbreeding is handle right this would not be the problem, but now pepole very often don´t now what they do. I guess that maybe 10 % that tries to linebreed now what they are doing really. The rotweiler have been very week mentaly because of bad breeding (here in sweden). This because it has been a very popular breed and has been throu bad breedings and inbreeding so they can produce so many dogs as possibly. That is very sad but the money talks. I think that its better to be on the save side and breed with healthy good dogs that is not so near in "family" to be on the save side whenm it´s posebly.

Exactly! It's the people involved that are causing the problem. GREED! As soon as a breed becomes popular the breed goes to hell in a handbasket. But this doesn't mean that inbreeding in itself is bad. It just means that the people doing it are idiots who want to make money at whatever costs. When reputable breeders do an inbreeding they just don't throw the pups out to the general public, they either keep them all for evaluation or place them with people who are close to them who have the knowledge to give them some accurate feeback about the traits of the dog. That way the breeder can cull out any bad ones and keep the good ones.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Hey Lisa, The thing is, these breeders are putting these iffy inbred pups out there to any punk kid with $300.and these pups are getting bred by inexperienced people. I think kennel clubs should limit inbreeding, some already do.
I know from first hand experiences with an inbred apbt and a son-mother bred lab/rott/shepard mix. My girlfriend saved the lab/rott/shep mix pup at 8 wks old. It grew to be 3 times the size of both parents, a great dog but he only dropped one testicle, absolutly no other health probs. He was raised in a very good home, and was socialized with alot of other good dog friendly dogs. At 2 yo he would literaly lose control of himself if another dog come by the house/kennel. He attacks our other dogs (which he normally loves) when the other dogs come by. Both of his parents were dog friendly.
 

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Norseman.

Inbreeding and linebreeding is a tool. Like any tool, it can be an absolutely indispensable tool or it can be used irresponsibly.

Can I ask you a question? How do you suppose a "line" of dogs are created? In fact, how do you think any BREED is created.

Linebreeding allows a performance breeder or a breeder trying to maintain pheotype (looks) to get CONSISTANCY within a litter.

Inbreeding (father to daughter for example) allows one to double up on the genes. So, the parents produce a dog that has exaggerated or more intese genetic expression than both the parents. This is how you get a dog like a PUG from a dog like a wolf. This is how you get BREEDS. Without inbreeding and linebreeding, there would be NO BREEDS OF DOGS.

THAT IS WHY backyard breeders are so BAD for dogs in general. They line breed and inbreed because they use whatever they have avaiable and they "look" good. AGAIN, WHY DOES ANYONE BUY FROM A BACKYARD BREEDER, KNOWINGLY?

That is why almost all PERFORMANCE WORKING DOGS have some inbreeding and MUST MUST MUST have linebreeding becasue otherwise it is a HIT AND MISS.

My dog is inbred. He was an experiment to see what was going to be produced. ALL of the dog, except my dog, stayed with the breeder. Now, the breeder has been doing this a long time and he is one of the best in the world at producing working ABs. So, you have to know what you are doing. And yes. He culls. Any reputable breeder MUST, IMO. TEST and CULL. TEST AND CULL. TEST AND CULL.

By the way, the dogs you inbreed better be AMAZING examples of the breed. Otherwise any flaws get multiplied and you get crap! NOW, this is the hard part, isn't it. This is where BYB have a major problem.
 

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Re: stupid question

snarky said:
i know that the word "cull" means pulled from the herd/litter... but what do you do with those puppies :? :(
It depends on the person. Most often the pups are PTS & other times they might be spayed/neutered & then found knowledgable, responsible homes with close friends of the owner/breeder's.

I believe that a dog is better off dead than in the hands of an ignorant person, a byb/puppy peddler, streetthug, etc.
 

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I believe that a dog is better off dead than in the hands of an ignorant person, a byb/puppy peddler, streetthug, etc.
depence on the person. just because you are a peddler or a streetthug dpes it not mean that you does not take care of your dog. I now many good familys that have dog and are the worse owners. I think that is a very harsh thing to say that a dog is better of dead. How many dogs do you have?
 
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