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Why I like smaller dogs.

17710 Views 60 Replies 21 Participants Last post by  LegendsMami
Here is Chucky my boy. 75-77lbs ripped.

We had a heat wave and it hit 100 degrees! We worked on our grips and he was loving it. I like his wind.

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Carrie, do you agree with the small standard AB vs pitbull of same size comment? From my knowledge this is true, but I could be wrong.
I think most APBT's just aren't genetically the best candidates for manwork...they have been bred as fighters with man aggression not being tolerated. (had to be able to handle your dogs in the pit without the dogs redirecting on you).

To be honest, nowadays, both APBT's and AB's have too many other breeds added to the mix. When looking for a dog for bitework, go with a breeder who works his dogs...I could be mistaken, but I think there are alot more AB folks working thier dogs than there are APBT folks...so logic would suggest if you want a bull breed for this type of work, to go with an AB.
but the leclerc and painter lines are also heavily infused with apbt and were also bred specifically for dog fighting, so wouldn't they be genetically very similar to the apbt because of their blood and because of the way they were bred and purposes for being bred?
but the leclerc and painter lines are also heavily infused with apbt
Would you clarify that, please. What breedings exactly are you talking about ?
I sorta saw this coming and knew this conversation would spark some controversy. I am not going to answer that, I don't think many people would, but get to know people who have been in the business of AB's and breeding AB's long enough and you'll see it's common knowledge. Or you can choose to live in the land of make-believe and fairy-tales and think that the standard AB is clean and pure 100% nothing ever mixed in ... Most new people tend to think that their line is pure. I hear new 'Johnson' or 'bully' people who believe that, and new 'standard' folks say the same. hard truth that they were both developed over the yrs and lots of paper-hanging went on...*runs and ducks for cover*
MrsCooper said:
Never mind, sorry for asking. :?
yeah it's just not a really highly documented thing...i'm just saying that there are those who know and then there are those who believe there was no outcrossing.

I felt like you were looking for some proof by asking, you won't really find much though...there are a lot of papers that show ? or unknown way back in hte ped, or just aren't marked at all, and most people just know that these lines have been heavily infused and line-bred for some time. Sorry if I misunderstood your post.
redbull said:
MrsCooper said:
Never mind, sorry for asking. :?
yeah it's just not a really highly documented thing...i'm just saying that there are those who know and then there are those who believe there was no outcrossing.

I felt like you were looking for some proof by asking, you won't really find much though...there are a lot of papers that show ? or unknown way back in hte ped, or just aren't marked at all, and most people just know that these lines have been heavily infused and line-bred for some time. Sorry if I misunderstood your post.
There was major outcrossing, I dont know much history about leclerc but I know alot of history behind scott's and painter dogs and they outcrossed them quite a bit...I read an article writen by johnson and him and painter swapped dogs often and he stated that the dogs where often crossed and he himself has bred back to them so in a sence there is no such thing as a 100% american bulldog even if he is 100% johnson he has alittle pit blood in him. I will have to dig long and hard but I will find that article it is very interesting reading comming from the man himself.
Ambull

Your quote ' "I am just curious as to why you would want a 70lb american bulldog? I use to breed pitbulls and thats the reason I wanted an american bulldog because they was a bigger bully breed. My ambull is nowhere neer as fast and agile as a pitbull but he is way faster than any human and he hits the sleeve like a freight train...as soon as I get a video capture device I am going to upload a few videos. He has cought a few decoys off guard and actually brought them to the ground and I think I can safely say that a 70lb pit just dont have the weight behind him to be able to do that. I guess what I want to know is why you would prefer a 70lb ambull over a 70lb pit? You dont see to many 70lb ambulls however I have seen alot of 70lb pits in my life. Who is in his ped? Are the sire and dame that small? How about his siblings?


Well Ambull, I think I am a pretty good decoy and if you ask any decoy which dogs have hit them the hardest, it would not be an 100lb dog, AB, bandog, or whatever. It is almost always a 70-80lb dutch or malinois. ASK any decoy. Speed = power. Now, weight helps, but it only helps if the dog can use it. Generally, I like any dog that is SUPER fast. the bigger the better. However, at a certain point big just means clumbsy. By the way, you have not seen too many 70lb AB's????? Look at ALL the female top bloodlines for manwork. You will see NONE. I mean NONE that is over 90lbs. NONE. If I am wrong, you can correct me. I will be honest. I have been to a few AB shows. I see big dogs there. 90lb and over. No thanks. I will stick with what I have. My little female won second in hardest hitting. And my male 80lbs was the only dog to ragdoll the decoy into the ground (he did not win because he did not hit hard - leg biter so he comes in slower). Now, he has great stamina too. However, it is nowhere close to my female. She is a machine.

The sire of my bitch is Mad Max sch 1. I think he is around 85lbs or so.
The dame of my bitch is Harddog's Petey - at the time, she was the ONLY bitch to have a WST II in WABA history. She was 70lbs.

The sire of my boy is White lightning Q - he was 70lbs. BST, PSA 1
The dame of my boy is White lightning Aries - she is around 65-70lbs. This is no joke of a bitch. Super hard for a female.

I like big dogs. In fact, I would rather have a big dog. However, I like big hearts better. I also do not care about hardest hitting. It is fun, but it is what the dogs does AFTER he hits that concern me.

My dogs can work in 40 degree weather. and their heads are as big as any heavier dogs. The rest is dead weight and slows the dogs down. I want speed in execution. That is my preference. Now, if I can get a bigger dog to do that, then I will buy it.

let me share one thing a french ring decoy told me that says much. "I can tell by his eyes."

I can honestly tell you that most decoys will smile and laugh when they see a 110lb dog coming onto the field.

Now, there are freaks like Koa or Thunder or Turbo that will just brutalize you. However, they are one in a million.

The most ballsy dog I EVER faced was Lucillano's Q. That is why I have his son. I never asked him about his weight. I just admired his heart.[/color]
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and as it relates to Johnson, painter, scott or lacleac.

Who cares.

I only care about the line NOW. What is in front of my face. The last time I checked, none of those boys knew anything about protection, sports or obedience. That is what I care about.

I respect them only as gentlemen who originated the breed. They created nice dogs. I personally think guys like Banuelos, Sure grip (specifically woody), and Koura (bred oden) did more for the breed. JMO.
I agree with you on the fact that when a dog is too big it looks clumbsy. When I was talking about 70lb american bulldogs I was referring to males. I have seen females 70lbs but that is a realy small male.

I think a good PP male should be 90 to 100lbs and a female around 80lbs and the reason I say this is because size does matter. I can tell you from personal experience from being attacked by two dogs in my life, I am a pretty big man and I just laid down on top of them and choked them out with my free hand and neither dog could do anything about it because they was just not big or strong enough to get out from under me. Now if that was a 120lb rott or even a 100lb ripped ambull I dont know if I would have been able to keep them pinned to the ground the way that I did.

Now a smaller dog will be able to run faster and jump higher but is that realy necessary in a PP dog? If your dog is chasing someone that someone is nolonger a threat to you or your family...right? So why would you need a dog that could catch someone? Police work is the only reason that I can think of. For an actual PP dog I would prefer a 100lb to 120lb dog for real world situations. Case scenario your wife is walking Rover down the street and some guy jumps out of a bush with a knife 70lb Rover grabs the knife hand, guy carries Rover because he just dont have enough weight behind him to take him down and he gets to your wife. I know thats way out there but you see what I am getting at?

In a real world PP dog I think I would be willing to sacrifice some speed for weight and brute strength. Your comments are welcome on this matter. Do you work with your dogs just for competition or are they actually used to guard your property and family? I never intended on entering my dog in anything but when I got him my vet trains dogs in PP work as well as obdience and she offered to train my dog. She competes in Schutzhund with shepherds and mals and she invited me to a comp in ohio one day and I entered my dog and he got his schI and I kinda got hooked and then he got his schII and I think I am done...I am just too busy to keep pushing him and after all we did just get him for a family guard dog to watch the kids when they are in the back yard playing.

Whats funny though is I have actually used him to track one of my boys before when he was late comming home, I let him smell some dirty laundry and off we went and he found him...lol!

One thing I was curious about though is French ring? In schutzhund we use a sleave that has a bite bar in it and this forces the dog to have a hard bite however in FR you use the body suit and the dog does not have to bite as hard to hang on? Does this effect how hard a dog bites in your opinion?
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Sorry....this really has nothing to do with lines, working, etc...


Just wanted to say, PeterC, that Ice is AWESOME...I know I've said that before but MAN...she is just stunning...beautiful! I bet she is fascintating to watch in action!
ambull040769 said:
I guess what I want to know is why you would prefer a 70lb ambull over a 70lb pit?
I happen to prefer a 50 pound pit to a 70 pound pit, but that's just me.

An old friend of mine has a 150 pound AmBull, boy is he handsome. Maybe she posts here?
:?
mom to many said:
Sorry....this really has nothing to do with lines, working, etc...
It dont?
ambull040769 said:
mom to many said:
Sorry....this really has nothing to do with lines, working, etc...
It dont?
I was referring to the comment I was preparing to give....just below that line, I commented on how beautiful I thought Ice is...and that doesn't have anything to do with working, lines, etc :D
In a real world PP dog I think I would be willing to sacrifice some speed for weight and brute strength. Your comments are welcome on this matter. Do you work with your dogs just for competition or are they actually used to guard your property and family? I never intended on entering my dog in anything but when I got him my vet trains dogs in PP work as well as obdience and she offered to train my dog. She competes in Schutzhund with shepherds and mals and she invited me to a comp in ohio one day and I entered my dog and he got his schI and I kinda got hooked and then he got his schII and I think I am done...I am just too busy to keep pushing him and after all we did just get him for a family guard dog to watch the kids when they are in the back yard playing.

Whats funny though is I have actually used him to track one of my boys before when he was late comming home, I let him smell some dirty laundry and off we went and he found him...lol!

One thing I was curious about though is French ring? In schutzhund we use a sleave that has a bite bar in it and this forces the dog to have a hard bite however in FR you use the body suit and the dog does not have to bite as hard to hang on? Does this effect how hard a dog bites in your opinion?
Ambull, what does the damage? The head. The jaw. My dog's heads are as big as any 90lb-100lb dogs'. they bite HARD because they want to. Desire to do damage. For me, speed is important, so is size (up to a point). However, what is MOST important for me is COURAGE on man. Some very tough dogs work hogs like a maniac and yet when they go against a human, they fold. I want that drive against a human. AND they must be clear headed enough to control. Sometimes that control is very difficult to get.

First, I question the quality of any 120lb rotti. I have never seen a good one that big. I used to have a czec rotti. He was only 85lbs.

Ambull, I do not train in sch because it has nothing to do with PP. My dogs would not be with me if they did not protect my family. AND I do not guess IF they will do this or not. They have been trained heavily for home invasion. They are, by necessitiy, very friendly dogs. However, they KNOW their jobs. I would not care if my dogs have a sch III. Because for me, a sch III does not test the dog's heart. PSA is much better (for me) but even that does not tell me everything. I train in Ring because the suit work is superior. A dog treats a suit much more differently than a sleeve. We also do hidden sleeve work under very very very careful conditions.
So, the bottom line......my dogs have to be good at their jobs. For me, sport work is the foundation. You learn martial arts (sch and ring). Then you street fight. That is why I like speed and deep desire.

I train with a 40lb mal. I agree in a street situation, that is not ideal. However, there is no dog that I would rather have in a dark alley than my Chucky. I KNOW for sure what he would do. No guess work. The same as his grandfather (block), father (Q) and his mother (aries). He was BRED SPECIFICALLY for PP and it shows. My female is a sport dog for sure. But again, she has EARNED her right to be in my home. Yes, EARNED it.

We train the grips sch style with the sleeve. But we adopt ANY style that will make our dogs bite deeper. then we transfer to the leg tug, sleeve, and then finally to the suit pants. Later we teach the upper arm pit bite. Our dogs in our club bite lower and upper body. Whatever is available. But we always go back to tug work and setting the grips, even on a 5 year old dog. FOUNDATION FOUNDATION FOUNDATION. SETTING THE GRIPS, ALWAYS.
With regard to hardness of the bite, I think posting your dog helps but really, it is up to the dog. It has TO WANT TO BITE HARD. training can enhance but not put desire in the dog's heart. We use many techniques to enhance the bite though.

With regard to sleeve and suit. Both have its uses. However, suit work is more applicable to pp work. Then to hidden sleeve to proof your training for PP. Let's face it, nobody is going to GIVE your dog an arm to bite.

Bottom line. I love big dogs. LOL. However, I just go by the size of their hearts and the clarity of head. I want my dogs to look as friendly as they really are. I don't want them to scare people. However, you come into my house to hurt my family.......you don't leave.
My dogs are working dogs. If they don't do their jobs, that good are they?
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Peter your dogs look great, and go figure HAPPY! ;)
thanks everyone. Ice is my family's queen bee and she knows it. She trains my fiance pretty well. When the day was stressful from work, I just look at her and somehow, all my petty concerns melt away. She is my stress relief. Chucky is my stress generator. LOL!
I agree your dogs do look great. I am very interested in PSA work because like I said I originally bought my ambull for a family guard dog and pet and I would love to put him in more real world situations other than the same old schutzhund routines.

However is it possible for a dog to learn PSA work after Schutzhund has already been imprinted in their head? Or would this be a very difficult transition? I found a trainer in Ohio and that is realy not too far of a drive for me.

I also would not mind getting my wifes boxer into it, I think she might do pretty good. We took her with us one day to do some sleeve work with our ambull and she got all charged up so the decoy wanted to see if she woud hit it and sure enough 4yrs old never done it before in her life she did with a nice full bite...That was a real funny situation right there because we never knew she had it in her, she is a realy friendly dog but it's almost like she learned from watching our other dog, have you ever seen anything like that?
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I placed a 200 pound (at his heaviest) rottie. I walked his butt to 180 pounds and he looked great.
Trained him how to walk on a leash and placed him with a 100 pound woman but that's another thread.
I suspect that he was mixed with something, not in his physical appearance but in his size. He was
maybe as large as a Great Dane, but he had the bulky muscles of a rottie. The one thing this dog knew
how to do was "hug". That is, he stood up when you pat your chest and wrapped his arms around your neck.
Mind you, I'm 6 feet tall. This dog was taller than me standing up. I'm glad he was a gentle giant (except for once)
because I don't know how anyone would've been able to handle him. We would've had to send him away to
a big dog professional trainer if he were rowdy, we had already decided that if he were nasty we would have put
him down. His head was HUGE, he had the head size of a Mastiff. If I ever find my pictures I'll scan them and post.
He was a sight to see, I could barely wrap my arms around his chest. He tested me only once and thank god he
wasn't absolutely serious because I wouldn't be posting this right now.
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