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hmmmm ok. you tell it to guard an object. Let's say another detective comes along and needs to collect the evidence (object). As this exercise states, the dog BITES without command, on its own. No, I don't think this is what you want.
I think Ring merely shows the innate ability, genetically, of the dog.(trainability, intelligence, endurance, mental stability, bite apptitude, clarity of head). I don't think any part of ring or schutzhund, as it is today, has ANY relavance to real world protection work. Much of it does not make sense. However, I think it is a TRAINER's sport. You learn alot from trainers smarter, more experienced than yourself.
I think Ring merely shows the innate ability, genetically, of the dog.(trainability, intelligence, endurance, mental stability, bite apptitude, clarity of head). I don't think any part of ring or schutzhund, as it is today, has ANY relavance to real world protection work. Much of it does not make sense. However, I think it is a TRAINER's sport. You learn alot from trainers smarter, more experienced than yourself.
Its always possible its incorrect. But it is a very old photo of a GSD looking pretty nasty guarding the glove. There is also a photo of a guy being attacked while firing a gun. The caption for both photos is "Two exercises that no longer play a part in Schutzhund: the attack under gunfire and guarding an object"Lisa said:
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That is very interesting, Thom....Schutzhund has removed alot of good things from their program....another being the attack out of the blind. It would be nice if the Germans could see the light and revert back to the old style, unfortuantely it seems they are bowing to society and going the total opposite way...really sucks. I wonder how long before there are no bites left at all in the trial? Hell, there's only 3 now for a SCH I.
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Yup, escape bite, re-attack, and courage test. Alot of it comes down to making it easier for the show GSD's. Over there in order to register a GSD litter the sire and dam need to be SCH titled. By taking out exercises you make it easier for the show dogs to pass. They have these trials over there that are known in the Schutzhund circuit as "monday" trials where titles are basically given away. It is pathetic. The show breeders there know which judges they can pass under and show under them.kogeki said:
Now see I really admired the GSD breeding program that they have in Germany because the parents must be Schutzhund titled before breeding. Well that just went out the window. That sucks. I had no idea the titles were basically given away.Lisa said:
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See, everytime I thought about bite work I would imagine the dogs biting the arms of the decoy. I never imagined them going for the legs instead but I guess that makes sense. Though during the test with the "gun", shouldn't they bite the arm holding the gun to sort of "disarm" the decoy because in a real situation the criminal would simple shoot the dog biting his legs wouldn't he?
That makes sense to me. My doctor has two highly trained GSDs and they can tell which weapon is a higher threat and then neutralize that threat first. For example if two guys were running at them, one with a knife and one with a gun, theyd take out the gun first. Theyd go for the arm that has the weapon.PitBullRoyalty said:
would that not make it easier to shoot the dog, if it comes directly for the gun?
I don't think ANYONE can really believe a dog is going to protect you against a gunned adversary. However, it will give you TIME. Time can mean life and death. THAT is the PP dog's job. Take the bullet, give the owner couple of seconds to run away.
LOL. if the guy misses, he is going to get messed up. LOL.
I don't think ANYONE can really believe a dog is going to protect you against a gunned adversary. However, it will give you TIME. Time can mean life and death. THAT is the PP dog's job. Take the bullet, give the owner couple of seconds to run away.
LOL. if the guy misses, he is going to get messed up. LOL.
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"LOL. if the guy misses, he is going to get messed up. LOL."
Ain't that the truth!
Ain't that the truth!
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Peter, I know you know ALOT more about this than I do so I'm not trying to argue with you or anything. I still think if the dog grabs the arm holding the gun that would give the dog and owner a better chance and time versus biting the legs right away. The criminal can still shoot both the owner and the dog because the arm with weapon is free. I can see if the guy is unarmed and simply chasing the owner than biting the leg would be helpful, but if someone were trying to kill a guy and their dog ran up to them and bit their leg they would simply shoot the dog and then shoot the owner. But if the dog grabbed the guy's arm, he may be able to shoot the dog but that would give the owner alot more time because the gunman wouldn't be able to lift the dog to shoot the owner.
too easy for the dog to miss the hand carrying the gun. Try it next time with your dog. Have a cookie in your hand. If you don't want the dog to get it, can he just grab it or can you just move your hand out of the way.
Legs, you cannot move so easily. Besides, there is a femoral nerve on your thigh. YOu get bit there, you go limp.
In any case, there is a reason in ALL the personal protection tournaments I have been to, the dog never targets the hand. The hand is too fast and how would you train for that? Decoy with gloves? The dog would crush your hand with any sort of protective gloves.
Legs, you cannot move so easily. Besides, there is a femoral nerve on your thigh. YOu get bit there, you go limp.
In any case, there is a reason in ALL the personal protection tournaments I have been to, the dog never targets the hand. The hand is too fast and how would you train for that? Decoy with gloves? The dog would crush your hand with any sort of protective gloves.
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PeterC said:
You bite the artery, you die. So what are the implications with that? Say someone is attempting to rob you...or acts in a viscious manner towards you/your family, pierces through the femoral artery and bleeds out. Are you guilty for murder?
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Well, my pit was fast with the cookie grabbing and I had to train that out of her but i see what you're saying now.
I used to attempt to give a cookie to my pomeranian and would see this 65 pound black dog leap and snatch and disappear with never a scratch to my hand. LOL, picture that simpsons episode when homer bred his dog and there were like 100 puppies grabbing his potato chips. he couldn't get one in his mouth. LMAO!
I used to attempt to give a cookie to my pomeranian and would see this 65 pound black dog leap and snatch and disappear with never a scratch to my hand. LOL, picture that simpsons episode when homer bred his dog and there were like 100 puppies grabbing his potato chips. he couldn't get one in his mouth. LMAO!
Well if someone "robs you" I am assuming they have a weapon of some sorts, and if someone acts "viscious towards my family" again self defense comes to play. In either scenario, never forget about the owner of the dog :wink: But in either case I don't think there is a jury that will side with a criminal. I think the laws will side the same if you shot the person assaulting you, if it was with in grounds of self defense then no murder charges would stand.Cinder said:
Cinder......
Having dogs and training PP dogs, I am VERY well versed in legal implications of various scenarios. If one thing I can be guilty of, I am very organized and meticulous.
Generally, there are various ways of teaching the dog in home invasion scenarios. In generality, since every case is different, if the robber is in the owner's living space, like living room and especially the bedroom, it is a "free" bite. If nobody is home and the robber dies because of it, the home owner is not liable. However, if the owner is home, they must try, if safe to do so (and this is the vague part - when is it safe), they MUST try to control the dog once the threat is averted. This has clear implication. When I am home vs when my wife is at home, the courts will view this as being very different.
Now, remember. "home" is not your yard, garage, or porch. It must be "living space", inside of the house.
I would highly doubt any court that would convict me when my dog KILLS a robber in my bedroom when my wife is at home alone. Here is the trump card. When is it safe for the the to STOP fighting, when the robber has a club or a knife? No. I have specific instructions for my wife when such things happen. YOU RUN OUT ........close the door .......and calll the police. The dog gave you time to escape. THAT IS A HOME INVASION DOG. If the dog has to give his life to give you this time, that is a noble job well done. Of course, the biggest job is as a deterrent.
If your dog bites VIRTUALLY anyone for whatever reason on YOUR own yard, even if he IS a robber, there have been cases where the robber sued the home owner. Please ask your insurance broker. They will tell you this to be true.
That is why you need a great fence. To protect the bad guy. And really, I don't want someone to get killed because he is a drug addict.
So, here is a question for you. What if your dogs are on your GATED porch, on the upper floor of your OWN home and bites a bad guy?
Answer: The porch must have a gate AND MUST HAVE A LOCKING MECHANISM, not just a latch. The idea is that the home owner must do EVERYTHING to protect the robber. Yep, I have a auto locking porch gate, with a pad lock.
I will tell you one thing, though. I feel pretty good when my doggies are home with my wife. I just felt a little sorry for the Jahova Witnesses. :lol:
Having dogs and training PP dogs, I am VERY well versed in legal implications of various scenarios. If one thing I can be guilty of, I am very organized and meticulous.
Generally, there are various ways of teaching the dog in home invasion scenarios. In generality, since every case is different, if the robber is in the owner's living space, like living room and especially the bedroom, it is a "free" bite. If nobody is home and the robber dies because of it, the home owner is not liable. However, if the owner is home, they must try, if safe to do so (and this is the vague part - when is it safe), they MUST try to control the dog once the threat is averted. This has clear implication. When I am home vs when my wife is at home, the courts will view this as being very different.
Now, remember. "home" is not your yard, garage, or porch. It must be "living space", inside of the house.
I would highly doubt any court that would convict me when my dog KILLS a robber in my bedroom when my wife is at home alone. Here is the trump card. When is it safe for the the to STOP fighting, when the robber has a club or a knife? No. I have specific instructions for my wife when such things happen. YOU RUN OUT ........close the door .......and calll the police. The dog gave you time to escape. THAT IS A HOME INVASION DOG. If the dog has to give his life to give you this time, that is a noble job well done. Of course, the biggest job is as a deterrent.
If your dog bites VIRTUALLY anyone for whatever reason on YOUR own yard, even if he IS a robber, there have been cases where the robber sued the home owner. Please ask your insurance broker. They will tell you this to be true.
That is why you need a great fence. To protect the bad guy. And really, I don't want someone to get killed because he is a drug addict.
So, here is a question for you. What if your dogs are on your GATED porch, on the upper floor of your OWN home and bites a bad guy?
Answer: The porch must have a gate AND MUST HAVE A LOCKING MECHANISM, not just a latch. The idea is that the home owner must do EVERYTHING to protect the robber. Yep, I have a auto locking porch gate, with a pad lock.
I will tell you one thing, though. I feel pretty good when my doggies are home with my wife. I just felt a little sorry for the Jahova Witnesses. :lol:
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If one of these dogs grabs on to your leg and you have a gun i dont think your gonna have the presence of mind to shot the dog AND the owner. Like what was stated earlier the point is to give the handler time to get away or react and the dog is there to create a distraction and protect or take a bullet if necessary. What would you be doing trying to do? get the dog that is ripping your leg apart off of you or trying to shoot the handler? by the time the dog latched on to your leg you and you had time to react you would already be in some serious trouble.
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